The ESFP "stupid" myth.

[skylights]

We each deserve chances to be heard out and acknowledged, but some people (like general ESFPs) are less likely to have something or as much available for integration. They can do other things, like leading people, or throwing parties, and so forth.

I think it would be more accurate to say that ESFP intelligence is less available to your thinking for integration. To mine, too, to be fair. I struggle with Se. But there's no arguing that it's a form of intelligence, and I think it's unfair to imply that its usage is primarily linked to "superficial" activities like throwing parties. My ISTP little brother integrates Se as in-the-moment hyper-accurate observation linked to Ti which results in super-fast identification and response. He's planning to go to med school. Similarly, Se-Fi sets ESFPs up to excel at any number of challenges where accurate, immediate observation plus intrapersonal value sensitivity yields advantage: politics, therapy, human resources, event planning, sales, entertainment, training, mediation. One of my ESFP friends (7w8) works in hospitality management and my little brother's ESFP friend (6w7) is planning to go into international business. In-the-moment does not have to equate to superficial or useless in the greater scheme. Fi grounds ESFPs in value-oriented behavior and that's where you'll more easily be able to find the "meaning" in their chosen paths. Se is invested in activity and experiencing, which is skill all Ns could benefit from improving.

Personally I prefer Socionics' descriptions of Se:

Introduction to Se
Extroverted sensing is an extroverted, irrational, and static information element. It is also called Se, F, volitional sensing, or black sensing. Se includes the ability to know how much power, force, or influence is latent or required. Types that value Se are much more comfortable with direct behavior aimed at making an immediate impact. This may at times be perceived as abrasive, particularly by types who do not value Se. There is usually a competitive edge to this style of group interaction, resulting in a more intense atmosphere than that of introverted sensing (Si)-valuing quadras. They appreciate contemplating possibilities only if they feel like they stand to gain something from it, or it has a perceived potential impact on "the real world". Unlike Si, which is about one's subjective sensory experience (how intense or enjoyable it is), Se is about achieving an object of desire. It gives one the ability to influence, bend, and push situations and people in order to achieve such an object, rather than to enjoy the situation one is in.

Se as Leading Function
The individual feels at home among people who are actively doing something and interacting with each other directly (visibly), and is able to organize people, move them around as necessary, and guide them in achieving a specific goal.[...] He is keenly aware of territorial conflicts and confrontational behavior occurring around him. [...] He quickly recognizes when people are trying to get each other to do something or are trying to organize him for some purpose. [...] He enjoys testing his will in challenging situations and views life as a sort of obstacle course, full of adversity and challenges, that must be weathered and conquered.

ESFP's are just as bad as ENFP's when it comes to Ti. The whole Ti world and concept of independent minded logic is something they ultimately do not, and will not ever completely understand. This in essence is what makes the come off or feel "stupid" [...]

This is true. Ti seems complicated to me. I grew up with an INTP dad and ISTP brother, so I'm relatively familiar with it, but I still don't completely comprehend it. My ISFJ is also quite unemotional and pretty Ti-heavy. It seems strange to me to be perceived as "stupid" because of my lack of it, but I can understand why a heavy Ti user would feel that way. To me, and I imagine to ESFPs, Ti can seem obscure and disconnected from reality. It doesn't feel like we need it to have a valuable life. (I do value Ti, but I have had to learn to value it; it did not come natively.)

I guess they are okay for practical matters but like all practical issues one question remains: What would the utilitarian purpose be for a practical person once we have armies of robots?

They are good at some creative areas but it is rooted in aesthetics - it looks good, it sounds good etc. It does not strike any deeper chords with me.

I seem to remember you have Fi too; look for it in ESFP activities. Creativity and aesthetics: appreciation of life and generation of art that increases others' appreciation of life or calls into question our perspectives. What is the point of human life, anyway? Biologically it's simply to be born, reproduce, and die. The only other purposes are those we make up ourselves. If another person doesn't live up to your personal decision on what life means, it doesn't really matter, frankly. You don't have to value their life purpose, but that doesn't make it any less meaningful or worthwhile in the grand scheme than yours.

One thing that does bug me is what I call "the void silence" or "the unspoken thoughtlessness". When they stop speaking there is a unique sense of silence which when observed at the same time of their facial expression screams one thing to me: that their brains are barely operating and are struggling to generate enough ideas to even find something to say.

I don't really think that's fair at all, or accurate. Everyone's minds are always operating, and as a 6 I can attest that I work to decrease the amount I hyperanalyze. More thought does not mean better thought, and there are some ESFPs whose minds are flying fast as any - too fast, even (my little brother's 6w7 ESFP best friend, for example).

 

[Zarathustra]

Se types are naturally enlightened, they don't need to think about the veracity of existence.

Nor do they need to think about the veracity of their own immediate perceptions, because those are their immediate perceptions, and there is no deeper reality than that which they immediately perceive.

 

[Standuble]

I seem to remember you have Fi too; look for it in ESFP activities. Creativity and aesthetics: appreciation of life and generation of art that increases others' appreciation of life or calls into question our perspectives. What is the point of human life, anyway? Biologically it's simply to be born, reproduce, and die. The only other purposes are those we make up ourselves. If another person doesn't live up to your personal decision on what life means, it doesn't really matter, frankly. You don't have to value their life purpose, but that doesn't make it any less meaningful or worthwhile in the grand scheme than yours.

You're telling me things that I've known for years. I've been a nihilist with unfortunate periodic lapses into existentialism since 2007. I know so much about the subject, moral relativism and the numerous rules about subjectivity that I doubt there is anything you can teach me about them. Don't waste your time.

I don't really think that's fair at all, or accurate. Everyone's minds are always operating, and as a 6 I can attest that I work to decrease the amount I hyperanalyze. More thought does not mean better thought, and there are some ESFPs whose minds are flying fast as any - too fast, even (my little brother's 6w7 ESFP best friend, for example).

It's called an observation. Fairness is irrelevant.

 

[Zarathustra]

You're telling me things that I've known for years. I've been a nihilist with unfortunate periodic lapses into existentialism since 2007. I know so much about the subject, moral relativism and the numerous rules about subjectivity that I doubt there is anything you can teach me about them. Don't waste your time.

Nihilism.

How original.

It's called an observation. Fairness is irrelevant.

How about stupidity?

 

[skylights]

You're telling me things that I've known for years. I've been a nihilist with unfortunate periodic lapses into existentialism since 2007. I know so much about the subject, moral relativism and the numerous rules about subjectivity that I doubt there is anything you can teach me about them. Don't waste your time.

It's called an observation. Fairness is irrelevant.

It's counterproductive to speak negatively about a certain group of people because they aren't like you. If you don't like their thing, that's fine, but there's zero benefit and possible harm to publicly insulting them. Cost-benefit analysis of behavior.



Not to mention it's beneficial to your own life satisfaction to try to see things in a positive light.

Lose-lose or win-win, your choice.

 

[Zarathustra]

...it's just a shame hedonistic mindlessness is so simply correlated with them.

Well, you have to admit, there is some reason for it.

 

[Zarathustra]

It's counterproductive to speak negatively about a certain group of people because they aren't like you. If you don't like their thing, that's fine, but there's zero benefit and possible harm to publicly insulting them. Cost-benefit analysis of behavior.

Not to mention it's beneficial to your own life satisfaction to try to see things in a positive light.

Lose-lose or win-win, your choice.

This man's a nihilist, Lebowski.

He believes in nothing.

NOTHING.

 

[Standuble]

Nihilism.

How original.



How about stupidity?

Dude get off my back. I only know a handful of ESFPs but these are observations I've made about them. I would welcome the opportunity to change my views because some of them I have to work with and I don't particularly enjoy the idea that I have to spend most of my time from people I can't learn anything new from or find common ground with.

 

[WALMART]

Well, you have to admit, there is some reason for it.

Yes, an ideal night for the guy I spoke of is four cool people and two cases of cheap beer, topped with burritos from a vendor parked outside of a car wash.

 

[Zarathustra]

Not sure if serious, but is there a quote? I suppose "depths"' sounds rather "Fi" like, but what I mean by that is what's actually going on inside my head, not the stuff I let most people see. I mean, I'd like people to see it, but they aren't always as receptive or interested in it as I would hope. Especially if it contradicts their neat and simple value system.

Of course someone can "promise" that they'll be interested, but such promises are worthless.

Perhaps you'd find they'd care more if your default position wasn't so asinine as the bolded.

 

[Standuble]

It's counterproductive to speak negatively about a certain group of people because they aren't like you. If you don't like their thing, that's fine, but there's zero benefit and possible harm to publicly insulting them. Cost-benefit analysis of behavior.



Not to mention it's beneficial to your own life satisfaction to try to see things in a positive light.

Lose-lose or win-win, your choice.

Like I said previously, I made my conclusions from observing a sample group and even then I do try my best to get along with them without insulting them or making their life worse. I have an old friend who I think is an ESFP and I apply effort to overlook their faults.

I would be willing to argue the second point with you (focusing on negatives does have its benefits too) but alas it isn't relevant to the topic.

 

[skylights]

Like I said previously, I made my conclusions from observing a sample group. I have a good friend who I think is an ESFP and who I look past any faults for.

I would be willing to argue the second point with you (focusing on negatives does have its benefits too) but alas it isn't relevant to the topic.

Eh, I think it is. Point being I think it's only useful to focus on negatives if they're real negatives. I don't think the ones you were pointing out actually existed anywhere but in your interpretation.

Nor do they need to think about the veracity of their own immediate perceptions, because those are their immediate perceptions, and there is no deeper reality than that which they immediately perceive.

Precisely.

 

[Zarathustra]

Dude get off my back. I only know a handful of ESFPs but these are observations I've made about them. I would welcome the opportunity to change my views because some of them I have to work with and I don't particularly enjoy the idea that I have to spend most of my time from people I can't learn anything new from or find common ground with.

Ftr, I've never had anything against you, so my being on your back had everything to do with what you said, and how you responded (i.e., flippantly/rudely, and unnwarrantedly so). Your observations were not fair, and yes, fairness is a perfectly reasonable think to expect of another's observations, unless we should all just go around being unfair fucking assholes all the time.

Trust me, I get your frustrations with ES(F)Ps - there's some truth to them - but it ain't the whole truth, and it's certainly not fair.

Believe it or not, there are some genius fucking ES(F)Ps out there who would make you look like a mental midget.

 

[Zarathustra]

Eh, I think it is. Point being I think it's only useful to focus on negatives if they're real negatives. I don't think the ones you were pointing out actually existed anywhere but in your interpretation.

I will actually come to his aid on this one.

There was some truth to most of what he said.

They often will have a blank expression where nothing really is going on upstairs.

Two issues arise from this observation, though:

1. It's not necessarily the case with all of them.

2. Even if it were, what's necessarily problematic about it? Maybe there really isn't a need to have a bunch of shit going on up in our/their minds at all moments. Maybe many of the goals of much of Eastern philosophy and meditation (mindfulness, emptying your mind, living in the now, etc) come rather naturally to them, and you , the one with all those self-important thoughts constantly going on upstairs, are the one with the actual problem.

Precisely.

Just to check...

I was being sarcastic...

I think Jon's whole "say only positive things about Se/Sensing and only negative things about Ni/Intuition" is simple-minded, stupid, and the wrong way to go about doing things (particularly discovering/spreading the truth). I understand why he's doing it, but, if he's going to be intentionally unbalanced about it (even if for understandable - even noble - reasons), well, I can't help but be the Libra I am and be compelled to balance that shit out.

 

[Standuble]

Ftr, I've never had anything against you, so my being on your back had everything to do with what you said, and how you responded (i.e., flippantly/rudely, and unnwarrantedly so). Your observations were not fair, and yes, fairness is a perfectly reasonable think to expect of another's observations, unless we should all just go around being unfair fucking assholes all the time.

Trust me, I get your frustrations with ES(F)Ps - there's some truth to them - but it ain't the whole truth, and it's certainly not fair.

Believe it or not, there are some genius fucking ES(F)Ps out there who would make you look like a mental midget.

This would have to be my last response because I really have to go but I was only talking about a sample group which unfortunately is quite large. I am also sure there are legitimate genius ESFPs out there too. If you encounter any then suggest them to go in my direction. I would be interested to test how it would turn out.

 

[RaptorWizard]

Believe it or not, there are some genius fucking ES(F)Ps out there who would make you look like a mental midget.

And I'm sure the same applies just as well for me and my own intellect in comparison to theirs.

But that doesn't make them wiser or more able to develop great ideas; it just means they're better problem solvers and have a faster wit.

edit - I 2nd this quote below:

This would have to be my last response because I really have to go but I was only talking about a sample group which unfortunately is quite large. I am also sure there are legitimate genius ESFPs out there too. If you encounter any then suggest them to go in my direction. I would be interested to test how it would turn out.

 

[Forever_Jung]

Van der Hoop does a pretty good job of outlining a Se-dom's abilities, and type of intelligence:

They are frequently good story-tellers. They are most suited to practical callings, such as those of doctor or engineer. Their fondness for knowing a multitude of facts is related to a preference which they occasionally show for collecting objects of scientific or aesthetic interest. One may also include in this type many people of good taste, who have developed appreciation of the subtler pleasures of life into a fine art.

We certainly wouldn't call people suited to medicine or engineering stupid, would we? I also wouldn't call world-class athletes and ballerinas stupid, even if they thought Hegel was a type of crotch exercise. I'm not saying all athletes/dancers are ESFP's, but you gotta admit that there are likely a lot of Se-doms in those fields.

Malcolm Gladwell once wrote about the "physical genius". Classical musicians, athletes, surgeons, all have physical intelligence. These are people who have a knack for translating thought into physical action. These are people who are so in tune with their bodies, and with their sensory environment, that they can accomplish tasks that require an obscene amount of finesse. Gladwell also talks a lot about the ability to visualize their environment. Here is an excerpt I found interesting:

What sets physical geniuses apart from other people, then, is not merely being able to do something but knowing what to do—their capacity to pick up on subtle patterns that others generally miss. This is what we mean when we say that great athletes have a "feel" for the game, or that they "see" the court or the field or the ice in a special way. Wayne Gretzky, in a 1981 game against the St. Louis Blues, stood behind the St. Louis goal, laid the puck across the blade of his stick, then bounced it off the back of the goalie in front of him and into the net. Gretzky's genius at that moment lay in seeing a scoring possibility where no one had seen one before. "People talk about skating, puck-handling, and shooting," Gretzky told an interviewer some years later, "but the whole sport is angles and caroms, forgetting the straight direction the puck is going, calculating where it will be diverted, factoring in all the interruptions." Neurosurgeons say that when the very best surgeons operate they always know where they are going, and they mean that the Charlie Wilsons of this world possess that same special feel—an ability to calculate the diversions and to factor in the interruptions when faced with a confusing mass of blood and tissue.

I'm not claiming Se = physical intelligence, just as no function equals a form of intelligence. However, what is being described above--this feel/vision--reminds me of when Se-users talk about sizing people up, getting clues based on body language. Maybe you want to argue the sports intelligence sounds more like a Se-Ti thing than a Se-Fi thing. FINE. But you have to at least concede that the physical intelligence required of certain fine arts (playing instruments/dancing/scultping/whatever), would definitely be in an ESFP's wheelhouse, even if they don't don't have a monopoly on such abilities.

Well, you have to admit, there is some reason for it.

True, extraverted sensors basically live to enjoy the sensory world. But Jung did also say:

It by no means follows that he is just sensual or gross, for he may differentiate his sensation to the finest pitch of aesthetic purity without ever deviating from his principle of concrete sensation however abstract his sensations may be.

I think it's important to remember that intuitive types often have the kinkiest and grossest relationship with the physical world. ESFP's experience their Se in a very positive, differentiated way.

 

[Azure Flame]

I guess they are okay for practical matters but like all practical issues one question remains: What would the utilitarian purpose be for a practical person once we have armies of robots?

They are good at some creative areas but it is rooted in aesthetics - it looks good, it sounds good etc. It does not strike any deeper chords with me.

One thing that does bug me is what I call "the void silence" or "the unspoken thoughtlessness". When they stop speaking there is a unique sense of silence which when observed at the same time of their facial expression screams one thing to me: that their brains are barely operating and are struggling to generate enough ideas to even find something to say. I blame inferior Ni myself - a sad display of cogs very slowly turning. I can't really describe it but it is different from ISPs (which have a watered down form) and far different from N types. With N's you can tell there is much activity going on in their heads between sentences and statements.



Or maybe it is because theories and theory formulation are N traits and Te allows them to use empirically backed logic to make sure it works. Believe it or not but NFPs are more than capable of creating theories, being insightful and working with ideas. ENFPs are not stupid like you claim. You really shouldn't be speaking about something you aren't mentally able to comprehend. In fact I don't know why you still post ideas here. I would be sceptical that anyone gives your views any weight.

If you read what I said again you will see the words "come off or feel" before the word "stupid."

Nowhere did I say they were stupid.

 

[Cellmold]

Well my parents are both rock climbers and I was brought up around their fellow club members.

Suffice to say there are a large number of Se dominants amongst them and what I've found is that they have an unparalleled ability to engage with life in a way that makes it well lived as well as generating useful experiential information along the way.

Some of them are also fucking idiots by my understanding. But many are highly intelligent and certainly more so than myself, though this is not hard.

However I truly envy their natural ability to exist in that flow of the moment and therefore create an interesting life for themselves. Whereas I have to force life along like a square wheel.

I often prefer the ESFP's to the ESTP's as I find a lot of the latter rather competitive and conflictual, which are my weak areas.
ESFP's are more engaging socially and actually project a charming air that can be quite infectious and given over to imitation by others.

I have learnt a lot from them in the way of cultivating a likable persona, well not really but it works superficially for groups who aren't looking at me too hard. Although they are naturally likeable, I create a persona to hide myself.

 

[Society]

i knew a brilliant ESFP - it was interesting, because you'd never know it by talking to her for the majority of the time, unless you assumed that she was and brought up interesting questions with her, in which case she'd throw at you an insanely intricate mental structure of why all the variables in question are interacting in a certain way in about the same "duh!" way she'd talk about why a certain pair of shoes worked better with a certain pair of pants (this was the 90s, teenage girls actually said "duh!")... and she'd think nothing of it, she didn't care that she was intelligent- it wasn't an aspect of her ego or her self image - her physical presence was, and last i heard she went into modelling (this was over a decade ago, probably changed careers since).