The ESFP "stupid" myth.

[King sns]

One more scenario to hopefully destroy the thread.

A picture of my daily life in school, (which mind you, I hate.)

Given, I'm smarter than most people I know of all types- ESFP or not. My motivations and actions are still highly Se driven.

It's a night before the final in whatever topic. We know that we can get out of class as soon as we're done the exam. There's something good on TV, I haven't studied or listened much in class. So, if it's a completely theoretical topic I just bullshit and educated guess my way through the test and ace it. No studying. A more scientific topic, a little more difficult. Read through all notes once. Skim the chapter. Two hours tops of memorizing and I go back to TV. Get up the next morning, go to class, skim notes one more time. Finish test first, (I often finish first) so I can go downtown on this beautiful day to get a latte.

News flash, the entire plan was a giant act of someone with high intelligence without motivations to look intelligent. From the ability to learn the information or connect information and make educated guesses, to the ability to make studying as efficient as possible to get on to other things, to the ability to whip through a test quickly and still ace it. That's all pure, simple problem solving and learning quickly. While people take notice of this, it was not my intention, (or any ESFP's intention) to try to appear as if I'm any better than the rest in that department. I do happen to be better in that department, but the final motivation was to enjoy my latte on a beautiful bright sunny day. That's what it looks like to be a smart ESFP.

 

[Forever_Jung]

ESFPs can be the smartest people in the world, but I will say this:

If your inferior Ni, you're going to have a hard time consistently commanding and trusting in that function it's just counter to your entire personality. One in a while it may emerge very powerfully, but it is just as likely to abandon and mislead Se-dom's when they need it most. It's like how INTPs may have more/deeper feelings than an Fe-dom, but they don't know how to appropriately express their feelings because of inferior Fe, and so they keep their Fe on a very short leash because it can't be trusted. Meanwhile, the Fe-dom usually knows how to help, what to say, how and when to express this feeling or that, etc. If INTPs do express their feelings via Fe it is often puppy dog like, because it is primitive but sincere. That is usually why thinkers occasionally have a dim view of Fe-doms, because they think everyone's feeling function is experienced on such infantile terms (I assume the same works in reverse, with a feeler's primitive thinking function). Your inferior will never be equal to your other functions. In fact, you have to slow down and "lower" your other functions just to meet the inferior on its own ground and integrate it into your personality. You can't pull the inferior up onto the level of your other three functions. So, coming back to ESFP`s, they have an inferior Ni, that they don't really trust. They have a stronger, but usually not very developed Te. And they have an auxilary Fi. This does not make them stupid, but it would make it difficult for them to do all the stuff INTJs are associated with (which in our culture, is often deemed intelligent stuff). That's not to say they CAN'T, but they usually don't want to, or would find it difficult, constantly operating outside their comfort zone. Meanwhile, INTJ's usually have a hard time with Se-Fi stuff, which is usually stuff that involve physical and aesthetic aims. Jung said Se-doms often make excellent engineers, so they're not all just athletes, musicians, dancers, etc though.

 

[King sns]

this^. btw i just found out im an esfp, not isfp, and im actually attending college right now on an entirely academic scholarship. back when i was a computer science major (i switched because it was too boring) i used to consistently get the highest grades in my class and i skipped school all the time. i almost became a math major because its my best subject, but decided not to because my math classes were becoming so theoretical that i, once again, got bored with it. now i'm thinking of doing something in the medical field

normally i wouldn't ever make a post like this either because talking about how smart you are is arrogant and ridiculous, but so is this thread, so i thought i'd chime in and support my smart esfp brethren.

There we go! Glad to see that someone really knows where I am coming from.. Of all the posts on this forum, I don't think I've ever actually really REALLY displayed myself that way. It's too arrogant and not really the look I'm going for. And plus it's a "me me me" example, no one else involved, but still proves the point. ESFP's come in all different intelligence levels, (just like everyone else)- despite our motivations.

 

[PeaceBaby]

How sad to see this thread resurrected ...

-----

Most ESFPs will not care about intelligence so they are less likely to adhere themselves to critical thinking challenges. This will include taking IQ tests seriously. It doesn't mean they are more incapable of doing so then intelligence obsessed INTs who try their hardest to look as intellectually challenging as possible. The case is it will be far more difficult to get an accurate understanding of an ESFPs critical thinking skills than it is an INT's critical thinking skills.

I agree with the above.

Here's my personal experience raising an ESFP son. Throughout high school, he would let his marks dip perilously low, then miraculously bring them to a pass at the 11th hour. After a few years of this, and his continued boredom with and disinterest in school, and with the diagnosis of ADD/ADHD floated around by teachers here and there throughout his scholastic career, we decided to put all doubt at rest and had a full evaluation done by an independent, professional team. We completed a week of testing the summer after he was in Grade 10. This team tested for everything from giftedness to learning disabilities. If there was a learning disability of any kind inhibiting the expression of his intelligence, we were determined to find it, or find nothing. But no more would we wonder.

Taking the IQ tests were painfully tedious for him; he has no desire to prove his intelligence to anyone, and therefore has no motivation to do well on the test. He only did them because he was 16 at the time and he respected us enough to try. He did take it seriously, for at least the first couple of days, because he could see our concern and knew there was some possible benefits for himself too - maybe there was some way school could be more enjoyable for him.

The results - he is very intelligent, testing at gifted level in many subject areas, and has a distaste for writing and testing of any kind. From these results, everything we already knew about him was confirmed. And we learned he is an auditory learner too ... he can make connections and absorb information best when he hears it. He can complete exams speaking out loud in a way he will never put the effort into when written. Should his preference to the spoken rather than the written word mean he is concluded as less intelligent since he can express the same answer one way rather than the other? In his last year of high school, a couple of his teachers permitted him to complete his exams orally, and he did extremely well. The same test on paper for him is a tiresome, painful bore.

Are all ESFPs stupid? No. Are most? Probably. An ESFP, meaning an actual ESFP, not an N pretending to be or mistyped as an S, in higher education is there only because of their ability to memorize and regurgitate facts; not because of creative or original thinking. Again, I'm not generalizing; the DEFINITION of an ESFP is someone who is not interested in pursuing the "truth" of the matter and is content to party and dance. Just like an INTP is someone who is uninterested in small talk and social interaction, etc etc etc. The problem is that intelligence is so valued in our society, people don't want to acknowledge the fact that personality has more to do with intelligence than any other factor.

By the same token, an INTP cannot be "stupid" in the traditional sense. They may be disconnected from reality, paranoid, delusional, etc, but the DEFINITION of an INTP is someone who is interested in theoretical possibilities, knowledge, and abstract thinking (oversimplifying, obviously, but you get the point). Karl Pilkington is an INTP with a below average IQ, but he is still more intelligent than an ESFP with an IQ of 120 because of the way he arrives at his conclusions vs. the ESFP; the INTP forms abstract connections between concepts and uses logic to arrive at some sort of a result. The ESFP does what he does because of, again, rote memorization and regurgitation.

This is replete with logical inconsistency. Your understanding of the definitions of both function preference and intelligence are inaccurate. Plus, the scope evident in the data-gathering component of your analysis is very narrow and shallow at best. Therefore, your conclusions are in error.

 

[King sns]

ESFPs can be the smartest people in the world, but I will say this:

If your inferior Ni, you're going to have a hard time consistently commanding and trusting in that function it's just counter to your entire personality. One in a while it may emerge very powerfully, but it is just as likely to abandon and mislead Se-dom's when they need it most. It's like how INTPs may have more/deeper feelings than an Fe-dom, but they don't know how to appropriately express their feelings because of inferior Fe, and so they keep their Fe on a very short leash because it can't be trusted. Meanwhile, the Fe-dom usually knows how to help, what to say, how and when to express this feeling or that, etc. If INTPs do express their feelings via Fe it is often puppy dog like, because it is primitive but sincere. That is usually why thinkers occasionally have a dim view of Fi-doms, because they think everyone's feeling function is experienced on such infantile terms (I assume the same works in reverse, with a feeler's primitive thinking function). Your inferior will never be equal to your other functions. In fact, you have to slow down and "lower" your other functions just to meet the inferior on its own ground and integrate it into your personality. You can't pull the inferior up onto the level of your other three functions. So, coming back to ESFP`s, they have an inferior Ni, that they don't really trust. They have a stronger, but usually not very developed Te. And they have an auxilary Fi. This does not make them stupid, but it would make it difficult for them to do all the stuff INTJs are associated with (which in our culture, is often deemed intelligent stuff). That's not to say they CAN'T, but they usually don't want to, or would find it difficult, constantly operating outside their comfort zone. Meanwhile, INTJ's usually have a hard time with Se-Fi stuff, which is usually stuff that involve physical and aesthetic aims. Jung said Se-doms often make excellent engineers, so they're not all just athletes, musicians, dancers, etc though.

Again though, a question of motivations and actions, not ability to learn quickly, problem solve, or adapt. (I guess that I am agreeing with you though, you can be a genius but still not want to be an engineer)

 

[ISFPeaceOut]

There we go! Glad to see that someone really knows where I am coming from.. Of all the posts on this forum, I don't think I've ever actually really REALLY displayed myself that way. It's too arrogant and not really the look I'm going for. And plus it's a "me me me" example, no one else involved, but still proves the point. ESFP's come in all different intelligence levels, (just like everyone else)- despite our motivations.

exactly. also, i study for my exams in the exact same way you do. Usually, I just read the material the day before the test, watch tv, sleep, and then wake up and reread my notes and I ace the test.

sometimes i think that people look at me and assume that i'm stupid or simple, but once they actually get to know me they realize that appearances can be very deceiving. if i had a nickle for everytime someone gave me a semi-surprised look when they realized that im actually pretty smart, i'd be a millionaire. its annoying, but kind of amusing. the people who know me well, would never, ever question my intelligence. in my family, im actually known as "the smart one".

and yeah, all this talk of how smart i am is making me feel like an arrogant jerk.

 

[King sns]

exactly. also, i study for my exams in the exact same way you do. Usually, I just read the material the day before the test, watch tv, sleep, and then wake up and reread my notes and I ace the test.

sometimes i think that people look at me and assume that i'm stupid or simple, but once they actually get to know me they realize that appearances can be very deceiving. if i had a nickle for everytime someone gave me a semi-surprised look when they realized that im actually pretty smart, i'd be a millionaire. its annoying, but kind of amusing. the people who know me well, would never, ever question my intelligence. in my family, im actually known as "the smart one".

and yeah, all this talk of how smart i am is making me feel like an arrogant jerk.

That's pretty much the definition of intelligence for me. Just being able to learn so quickly. Just an intelligent INTJ may have a higher motivation to appear that way, or use it in a different way. (INTJ's of lesser intelligence may also want to appear that way, as evidenced by this forum.) I used to be in a math class where the teacher had us doing problems on our own sometimes and she would go around and help people. Instead of having me doing the problems she used to ask me to get up and go help people as well. (The only one she asked.)

 

[miss fortune]

I've always wondered why you're supposed to be miserable if you're supposed to be smart :rolli:

 

[Robopop]

I've always wondered why you're supposed to be miserable if you're supposed to be smart :rolli:

I know what Lex is going to probably say, "because you are surrounded by mindless, vapid, simpletons NOT INTJs".

 

[Ginkgo]

For the love of Buddha...

 

[miss fortune]

great, mr potato... now I'm thinking "what would you do for the love of buddha" to the tune of the klondike commercial... and the words don't even FIT right

 

[Perch420]

The description you posted states that ESFP's tend to avoid theoretical thinking, and don't like classroom learning which says nothing about inborn intellectual ability. The IQ test that a lot of people here tend to refer to is about ability to learn, adjust to different scenarios and problems, and have the ability to solve those problems. There's no "deep" philosophical thinking involved, only quick and simple problem solving. So, one can be a stereotypical ESFP- someone who hates school, scoffs at the idea of opening a philosophy or physics book, and just wants to just go to the beach all day long and still have those adjusting and problem solving abilities (greater than that of any stereotypical INTJ,). Smart ESFP's can dance cicles around schools, never show up for class, spend all night partying and still get straight A's.(Because if you're intelligent, you've probably found out how to do so. ) It's not an ESFP's perogative to hang around with books, they want to be around people and excitement. That's what the description is saying. You can keep your nose in a book all day but inborn intelligence is inborn intelligence, it's not changing. "ESFP's don't like to theorize so they are dumb" is just a wall to hide behind so that some of you can say... "Well I like to theorize! I like going to class. That's something I can do all day to avoid life experience. That must make me smart, unlike an ESFP." Think again. I'd like to see half of you sitting next to my empty seat in class, (or doodling and snoozing self) and take bets about who's going to get the better grade. I'm pretty sure that most of my former classmates would have still put their money on me.

ESFP's hate school, books, and theorizing. Intelligence is a whole other thing.

Intelligence is, again, abstract creative thinking, which the ESFP, by definition, is incapable of doing at an above-average level. You or any other ESFP that gets good grades isn't intelligent, they are simply capable of absorbing information and regurgitating it. Again, this is not intelligence, just rote memorization ability.

 

[miss fortune]

people have the ability to use functions other than their primary ones quite adequately... you're being rather narrow minded (which is showing NO creative and abstract thinking abilities in the least)

 

[Perch420]

So ESFPs can be intelligent by definition, yet it's impossible for an INTP to be stupid "by the same token" ?
Besides of being incredibly shortsighted, your logical and reasoning ability sucks. Such non sequiturs aren't very appealing in an ESFP bash.

An ESFP cannot be "intelligent". Re-read my post. I defined intelligence as the ability to think creatively and abstractly, which the ESFP is incapable of doing. Likewise, the INTP cannot be "stupid" in the sense that even if their "processing power" is slow like in the case of Karl Pilkington, they still think creatively and abstractly, unlike the ESFP, who is incapable of thinking in such a way, and are therefore, by definition, unintelligent.

 

[kyuuei]

^ You are a shining example that grades do not equate intelligence.

If abstract, creative thinking is the center of intelligence, artists should be recognized as the most intelligent profession out there. Afterall, being a doctor isn't at all about memorizing and reciting gobs of straight facts and information. Being a lawyer has nothing to do with applying lots of memorized facts and cases after all.

 

[Ginkgo]

great, mr potato... now I'm thinking "what would you do for the love of buddha" to the tune of the klondike commercial... and the words don't even FIT right

!!!!

 

[Perch420]

One more scenario to hopefully destroy the thread.

A picture of my daily life in school, (which mind you, I hate.)

Given, I'm smarter than most people I know of all types- ESFP or not. My motivations and actions are still highly Se driven.

It's a night before the final in whatever topic. We know that we can get out of class as soon as we're done the exam. There's something good on TV, I haven't studied or listened much in class. So, if it's a completely theoretical topic I just bullshit and educated guess my way through the test and ace it. No studying. A more scientific topic, a little more difficult. Read through all notes once. Skim the chapter. Two hours tops of memorizing and I go back to TV. Get up the next morning, go to class, skim notes one more time. Finish test first, (I often finish first) so I can go downtown on this beautiful day to get a latte.

News flash, the entire plan was a giant act of someone with high intelligence without motivations to look intelligent. From the ability to learn the information or connect information and make educated guesses, to the ability to make studying as efficient as possible to get on to other things, to the ability to whip through a test quickly and still ace it. That's all pure, simple problem solving and learning quickly. While people take notice of this, it was not my intention, (or any ESFP's intention) to try to appear as if I'm any better than the rest in that department. I do happen to be better in that department, but the final motivation was to enjoy my latte on a beautiful bright sunny day. That's what it looks like to be a smart ESFP.

Memorization is not the same as intelligence. You apparently are good at absorbing large amounts of information and recalling it efficiently. This is not the same as thinking creatively and abstractly.

 

[Savage Idealist]

Originally posted by Perch420
An ESFP cannot be "intelligent". Re-read my post. I defined intelligence as the ability to think creatively and abstractly, which the ESFP is incapable of doing. Likewise, the INTP cannot be "stupid" in the sense that even if their "processing power" is slow like in the case of Karl Pilkington, they still think creatively and abstractly, unlike the ESFP, who is incapable of thinking in such a way, and are therefore, by definition, unintelligent.

If this post wasn't so ignorant and offensive, I'd say that it's ridiculously laughable.

 

[Perch420]

Well, being a doctor doesn't require a high IQ necessarily. I agree with that. What's your point?

 

[kyuuei]

Savage: What is more incredible is his lack of appreciation for memorization. It is a difficult thing to memorize large sums of information accurately and be able to use it effectively. There are creative, abstract ways of memorizing gobs of information so that it can be effectively wielded and utilized in situations necessary.

I wonder where narrow-mindedness ranks in his intelligence scale? It isn't in the definition he used, so I presume it is a sign of a lack of intelligence. Infact, everything besides creative, abstract thinking is a lack of intelligence according to him.. .. We have a lot of dumbasses.

Perch: Necessarily? Do you know how difficult the MCAT testing is just to get into medical school? Sounds like you're not giving people the credit they are due. You tailor the definition of intelligence to whatever it is you please it to be, which destroys the word and is, itself, unintelligent. I suppose you're the only intelligent person you've ever come across.