The ESFP "stupid" myth.

[garbage]

Gee whiz, who on earth gave this thread five stars?? Arguing with 15 year old INFP's who are insecure about their identity is NOT FUNNY....

we just had a young arrogant misogynist get banned and are still getting over the wounds of that painful loss so don't take this one away from us dammit

 

[King sns]

we just had a young arrogant misogynist get banned and are still getting over the wounds of that painful loss so don't take this one away from us dammit

I'm thinking we may have lost him to natural causes anyways.

Since in the event of a fire or cardiac arrest those silly trucks may come along with their silly lights... and those stupid ESFx's may come piling out and break into his home. Since those ESFx's contribute nothing to this society, he can have the paperwork ready stating that he does not want to use their useless services or memorization skills. He won't need any slow thinkers around.

 

[Noon]

I always wonder what I should even think of intelligence as. In the past, I've mistaken intelligence for knowledgeability (large personal inventory of facts and concepts) as well as for pristine school performance (which ironically is more of a measure of motivation and task orientation than intelligence, necessarily).

I don't see why memorization should be discounted as a factor of intelligence, but I agree that it doesn't solely define it -- especially rote or crammed memorization -- but then neither does abstract reasoning.

I think that as of now, I sort of think of ("general") intelligence as a combination of all of these

a - adaptive and abstract reasoning
b - creative and effective application of knowledge
c - critical thinking, logical reasoning and comprehension
d - memory (capacity for and successful retention of knowledge)
e - articulation (comprehension and command of language)
f - curiosity (which is not to say that this is a prerequisite, but generally I believe curiosity and intelligence tend to go hand in hand)

All of which only abstract reasoning (which I think is quite small when you take into account all of the others) would seem to be less engaged by ESFPs. All Ps tend to be creative and adaptive learners, and ESFPs can most likely also apply their knowledge and creativity with pretty great efficiency given their tertiary Te.

That said, it's a bit tiring that intelligence tends to be viewed almost exclusively through the NT lens in these sorts of threads. NTs are one of four sectors of society, and if the statistics are to be believed, quite a small one at that. How then can SPs and SJs not contribute "anything of value" to society when they basically are the foundation of society?

Though I guess the even bigger problem is the prominence of (often entirely personal) value judgments; these discussions tend to reek of underlying "intelligence = superiority, and I must defend my image of superiority" judgments that invariably limit open exploration.

 

[Perch420]

These days I pretty much only read the SP section of this forum, but someone sent me a rep for an old post in this thread, so I re-read it..




I read this and laughed because it sounds exactly like my experience with sociology class. I absolutely despised that class for its stereotype-perpetuating garbage, but the facts of it were very easy to memorize. I made an A in the class, including a perfect 100 on the final, meanwhile others in the class who were planning on majoring in sociology made C's! I think I might have glanced at the material once in studying for the final, in between sessions of playing Mortal Kombat.



And the same to you.

Am I supposed to be impressed? You memorized information and regurgitated it. You're only proving my point that it is impossible for an ESFP to think critically and abstractly, and therefore it is impossible for an ESFP to be "intelligent", as per the traditional definition of the term.

 

[ISFPeaceOut]

nevermind. im bored with this topic.

 

[Valiant]

As long as you "die" (figuratively), i'm fine with it. Standing, lying, kneeling, face down...

 

[PeaceBaby]

... it is impossible for an ESFP to think critically and abstractly, and therefore it is impossible for an ESFP to be "intelligent", as per the traditional definition of the term.

Dear Perch420,

Allow me a minute to address you directly here. Your conclusion, that it is impossible for an ESFP to be "intelligent", depends upon the truth of your premises and on the validity of your argument.

So let's examine your argument.

To boil down what you are saying, it reduces to this: "Since human intelligence is defined as possessing critical and abstract thinking skills, any humans without these skills are stupid, and it impossible for an ESFP to possess these skills, therefore all ESFP's are stupid."

Let's see if this holds up to scrutiny.

Premise 1.) Your definition of intelligence is the possession of "critical and abstract thinking skills". Is this an accepted definition of intelligence? No; incomplete.

Let's examine a number of authoritative sources to see what intelligence is defined as. I will use (for convenience's sake) the website www.dictionary.com.

in·tel·li·gence   
–noun
1. capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc.
2. manifestation of a high mental capacity: He writes with intelligence and wit.
3. the faculty of understanding.

Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2011.​

World English Dictionary
intelligence (ɪnˈtɛlɪdʒəns)

— n
1. the capacity for understanding; ability to perceive and comprehend meaning
2. good mental capacity: a person of intelligence

Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition
2009 © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins
Publishers 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009​

Medical Dictionary

in·tel·li·gence definition
Pronunciation: /in-ˈtel-ə-jən(t)s/
Function: n
1 a : the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations
b : the ability to apply knowledge to manipulate one's environment or to think abstractly as measured by objective criteria (as tests)
2 : mental acuteness

Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2007 Merriam-Webster, Inc.​

intelligence in·tel·li·gence (ĭn-těl'ə-jəns)
n.

The capacity to acquire and apply knowledge, especially toward a purposeful goal.

An individual's relative standing on two quantitative indices, namely measured intelligence, as expressed by an intelligence quotient, and effectiveness of adaptive behavior.

The American Heritage® Stedman's Medical Dictionary
Copyright © 2002, 2001, 1995 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.​

Your definition is too narrow and vague to be an accepted definition of "intelligence". Therefore, premise 1 is incorrect.


Premise 2.) As per my paraphrase: "any humans without these skills are stupid"

Since your definition of intelligence is incorrect, we cannot conclude that humans without the skills you list are indeed stupid. Even if we collectively agreed upon a definition of what constitutes intelligence (as above for example), stupidity still would have to reduce to a set of observable actions to induce us to agree that someone is indeed stupid and lacks intelligence. And if we can't use actions to agree upon what defines stupidity, we would have to then try to agree on other objective measures, like IQ for example, to help us define intelligence vs stupidity. Yet if we use IQ then as a measure of intelligence, it has been demonstrated that high IQ can be found in all types, with a relative percentage of probability. (need to look up source). Yet even that percentage of probability is potentially biased, however, due to the preference of some personality types to testing of any kind. So, this data is potentially skewed as well. (See how slippery this slope is?)


Premise 3.) Again, as per my paraphrase: "it impossible for an ESFP to possess these skills" - since your definition is incorrect in the first place, again this extrapolation is incorrect. But, let's go with a more authoritative definition of intelligence instead, as above, for fun.

in·tel·li·gence   
–noun
1. capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc.
2. manifestation of a high mental capacity: He writes with intelligence and wit.
3. the faculty of understanding.

Anecdotally, I can say with certainty, I have witnessed on numerous occasions ESFP's demonstrating a "capacity for learning, reasoning, understanding, and similar forms of mental activity; aptitude in grasping truths, relationships, facts, meanings, etc. etc." In fact, there's nothing in the above definition that excludes any ESFP from possessing these skills. Therefore you cannot conclude ESFP's, as individuals or as a group, are not in possession of intelligence. You would need to study a large group of verified ESFP's to make such a global conclusion. Have you done this? No.

Can you say you have met an ESFP who fulfills the criteria for intelligence? Perhaps not. Impossible means 0% probability. But you are 15, your worldly skills are at a novice level, your ability to type others may be flawed, your perception of type skewed. You don't know because you do not yet even know yourself. Think on that.


So finally, your conclusion: "all ESFP's are stupid" ...

BUSTED. Just totally busted. Your premises are flawed at best, and just out and out incorrect. Come up with a better argument, and someone might hear what you have to say. You better have some hefty evidence on your side though.

And hey, I get that you are testing out your Ti skills - you come across as a growing, exploring young INTP to me, but you still need some Fe in there, or you risk alienating everyone so that they won't even be interested in the first place to try to follow your train of thought.

Good luck to you; try not to get banned.

 

[King sns]

And hey, I get that you are testing out your Ti skills - you come across as a growing, exploring young INTP to me, but you still need some Fe in there, or you risk alienating everyone so that they won't even be interested in the first place to try to follow your train of thought.


Good luck to you; try not to get banned.

+1, he'll get there.
No arguing with a 15 year old anyways. INTP or not.

 

[wolfy]

I'd hate to have remnants of my 15 year old thoughts floating in cyberspace.

 

[King sns]

I'd hate to have remnants of my 15 year old thoughts floating in cyberspace.

Oh my God. No ones 15 year old thoughts should be in cyberspace. It's the new age of embarrassing, like when your mom shows naked baby pictures of you to everyone.

 

[wolfy]

Oh my God. No ones 15 year old thoughts should be in cyberspace. It's the new age of embarrassing, like when your mom shows naked baby pictures of you to everyone.

I know! You wouldn't believe some of the stuff I would have posted. It would have been glorious.

 

[King sns]

I know! You wouldn't believe some of the stuff I would have posted. It would have been glorious.

Yea, some of my attacking Elmo in the mall and verbally abusing Santa stories were pretty dubious then.

 

[Stansmith]

I just realized that I might possibly be an ESFP, and it makes me feel some type of way.

 

[prplchknz]

my friend is ESFP, and she's very smart, but sometimes she make impulsive and seemingly dumb decisions, and you look at her and go, how can you be so dumb? But she actually is really smart, she's going to grad school and majored in journalism for her under grad. Any was she's going into occupational therapy and is going to open a snoezelen clinic one day, at least that's her dream. And to be able to get into grad school you have to have some semblance of intelligence. And she's been doing well on her practice GREs, and is really driven. I admire her drive, because I don't have a drive.

 

[RaptorWizard]

I approve of this myth - even if some have higher IQs than my own (114), their orientiation to think at many levels and maintain higher focus won't ever be completely set.

I don't think you could find one famous ESFP philosopher in the entire history (and even unknown past) of the human race!

Still, it doesn't make them bad or unecessary people, it's just that their abilities and inclinations rest outside my zones of interest.

 

[prplchknz]

I approve of this myth - even if some have higher IQs than my own (114), their orientiation to think at many levels and maintain higher focus won't ever be completely set.

I don't think you could find one famous ESFP philosopher in the entire history (and even unknown past) of the human race!

Still, it doesn't make them bad or unecessary people, it's just that their abilities and inclinations rest outside my zones of interest.

so because they don't share your interests, they're stupid? And being interested in philosophy doesn't make one smart automatically. I don't share a lot of interests, with sterotypical ESFP, such as the opposite sex crazy, makeup, looking good ect. No interest. And they rarely have interest in the cerebral things I'm interested in, but I don't automatically write them off as stupid.

 

[RaptorWizard]

so because they don't share your interests, they're stupid? And being interested in philosophy doesn't make one smart automatically. I don't share a lot of interests, with sterotypical ESFP, such as the opposite sex crazy, makeup, looking good ect. No interest. And they rarely have interest in the cerebral things I'm interested in, but I don't automatically write them off as stupid.

Well, not only are many not interested in topics such as metaphysics, philosophy, cosmology, enlightenment, and such, but they also quite often fight against progress in those areas. If there's one thing worse than a closed-minded person, it's a closed-minded person that closes our horizons. Like I said, they have their own intelligence, but it's in things of more mundane natures.

 

[prplchknz]

Well, not only are many not interested in topics such as metaphysics, philosophy, cosmology, enlightenment, and such, but they also quite often fight against progress in those areas. If there's one thing worse than a closed-minded person, it's a closed-minded person that closes our horizons. Like I said, they have their own intelligence, but it's in things of more mundane natures.

I can't even respond to this, it's clear you're stuck in your ways. You say you're open minded, this disproves it tremendously.

 

[RaptorWizard]

I can't even respond to this, it's clear you're stuck in your ways. You say you're open minded, this disproves it tremendously.

If an ESFP wants to tell me something of value, or better yet, let me tell them something of value, then I'll open up more; but until then, my attention remains focused elsewhere. You confuse me discounting other people with me not listening to them. I try to factor everyone's opinion, and I don't believe in destroying the rights of other people. We each deserve chances to be heard out and acknowledged, but some people (like general ESFPs) are less likely to have something or as much available for integration. They can do other things, like leading people, or throwing parties, and so forth.

 

[WALMART]

Se types are naturally enlightened, they don't need to think about the veracity of existence.