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Religious and cult founders

Aleksei

Yeah, I can fly.
Joined
Mar 10, 2010
Messages
3,626
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
7w6
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Abraham: ENFJ, 1w2 sx/so, ESFp-Fi
Moses: ENFJ, 1w2 so/sp, ESFp-Fi
Jesus: INFJ, 1w2 so/sx, ISFj-Fi
Mohammed: ENTJ, 1w2 sx/sp, ESTp-Se
Siddharta Gautama: INFJ, 1w9 so/sx, INTp-Ni
Laozi: INFP, 9w1 so/sx, INTp-Ni
Confucius: ENFP, 1w9 so/sp, ENFj-Ni
Aleister Crowley: INTP, 4w5 sx/sp, INFp-Fe
Helena Blavatsky: INFP, 1w2 sx/so, INTp-Ni
Anton LaVey: ISTP, 8w7 sp/sx, ESTp-Se
Michael Aquino: INTJ, 8w9 sx/sp, INFp-Ni
Ayn Rand: INTJ, 1w2 sx/sp, INTp-Te
L. Ron Hubbard: Wintastic ENTP, 8w9 sp/sx, ENFj-Ni
 

Moiety

New member
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
5,996
MBTI Type
ISFJ
Jesus was INFJ I agree. But I think Buddha was NP. I'd even say possibly ENFP. But he had Ti in there too... I don't know most of the others too well.

I think Jesus is a classic example of how the HOW can make all the difference. He essentially thought a lot of the same things as Buddha, but he went about convincing people in en entirely different manner. Typical Ni megalomania I say :p
 

Craft

Probably Most Brilliant
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
1,221
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
5w7
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Aleister Crowley: INTP, 4w5 sx/sp, INFp-Fe
i
I have a hard time thinking of an INTP majoring in occult and mysticism. My guess is probably NiFeTi, which can only mean INFJ.
 

Nicodemus

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Aug 2, 2010
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It's a rather wild guess based on his career as a professor and writer. He has written hundreds of books on theology. Apart from his subject, he is the archetypical scholar.
 

Aleksei

Yeah, I can fly.
Joined
Mar 10, 2010
Messages
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7w6
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sx/sp
I have a hard time thinking of an INTP majoring in occult and mysticism.
He was clearly Ne using -- his beliefs are a synthesis of magickal traditions from various sources - clandestine (Memphis-Misraim) Freemasonry, the Golden Dawn, the Ordo Templi Orientis (the latter two of which he took over), Egyptian paganism, etc. That, and his beliefs were all based on an axiom-based logical system of analysis of reality, based on "eras" (Era of Kali, Era of Horus, etc); not on personal beliefs or ethics.

He was an INTP. He was just an INTP gone cuckoo, kind of like the Time Cube guy.

Joseph Ratzinger: INTP.
I meant religious and cult founders. Sorry for the confusion.
 

KDude

New member
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Jan 26, 2010
Messages
8,243
I kind of think Buddha is a Ti type actually. An INTP.. or even ISTP. At least, I think Buddhism is more Ti than Fi or Fe. More emphasis on detachment and self-containment, warnings against what extent you define yourself by or get involved with others. The path to enlightenment has little to do with other people (except maybe in Mahayana Buddhism..).

Either that, or he just discovered to emphasize something very Ti like.
 

Moiety

New member
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
5,996
MBTI Type
ISFJ
I kind of think Buddha is a Ti type actually. An INTP.. or even ISTP. At least, I think Buddhism is more Ti than Fi or Fe. More emphasis on detachment and self-containment, warnings against what extent you define yourself by or get involved with others. The path to enlightenment has little to do with other people (except maybe in Mahayana Buddhism..).

Either that, or he just discovered to emphasize something very Ti like.

Buddha had a life before he became "enlightened". Up until he was 29 he lived a normal prince's life. Lots of indulgence.
 

KDude

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Buddha had a life before he became "enlightened". Up until he was 29 he lived a normal prince's life. Lots of indulgence.

True enough. But to add to that, he was a bottom up type of thinker too, so maybe not even INTP. He could have been a sensor for all I know. His curiosity, investigation, and path to discovery seemed to take small steps. Starting first with exploring the city around him and encountering suffering, and then running off, joining different ascetic groups to figure out his path (and finding them all lacking).

Either way, a lot of foundational principles "as the Buddha".. as we come to know him.. seem kind of Ti. If anything, Buddhism is about problem solving (the problem of suffering). In one sense, it's not exactly people oriented... other than being kind enough to want to offer up his answer. He didn't stew over things in a good vs evil Fi way, and then venture out to stop injustice. And he was too detached and emphasized uninvolvement to be Fe. The idea that everyone is responsible for their own enlightentment - and teaching how to get there, complete with bullet points on cause and effect and eightfold path to rid oneself of those causes seemed like a Ti sort of thing. :cheese:

That said, I mentioned Mahayana Buddhism stresses something different (it teaches that enlightenment is ultimately for the sake of others.. and that the enlightened can forgo Nirvana and be reincarnated back as a Bodhisattva, in order to guide people).. as well as placing some importance on institutions.. but older writings didn't have this stronger social element to it.
 

Moiety

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Aug 3, 2008
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5,996
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ISFJ
Yeah, like I said, he used Ti. But I think Fi was also present. I don't have a convincing enough explanation for that though other than the fact his spiritual journey was so important to him and he was so adamant about solving the problem of suffering. It feels like that Fi sort of self-righteousness. I'm pretty sure of N though. He was certainly very metaphorical and drawn to abstract ideas (Hello! Enlightenment! ;))
 

KDude

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Jan 26, 2010
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Perhaps you're right. Either way, he intrigues me for some of these things.. for one of the most well known religious founders, his path seemed less automatic and revelatory. Especially the story after he left his city and joined different groups. It makes him more human that he was such a searcher, first and foremost..And didn't find his path until 35.. Even then, apparently, it was someone else that convinced him to teach it.
 

Andy

Supreme High Commander
Joined
Nov 16, 2009
Messages
1,211
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Confucius always struke me as more of an ISTJ. He was greately concerned with economic and social stability. He even thought of the human government as being an extension of the celestial government of the spirits, and thus corruption in human rulers could lead to natural disasters like floods and famines. He believed that if everyone could be persuaded to pull together and do their bit all the wars and plagues would come to an end and the world would return to the state changeless perfection it knew at the start of time.

I might have typed him as an ISFJ, but his social ideals seemed more Fi and Fe to me. He was involved in a debate about if it was acceptble for a man to touch a woman he wasn't married to if it was to stop her from drowning. Apparently, answering this question tuke quite a lot of thought, weighing up the pros and cons. In the end, he decided that it was ok, but I'm pretty sure an ISFJ would have been much more likely to just say "Yes!" What with their drive to action being Fe based.
 

Aleksei

Yeah, I can fly.
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sx/sp
I agree that the Buddha is Ti, but I find INTP doubtful - the whole focus on meditating on one ideal, one vision is very Ni. I'm not sure what about him is Ne at all. ISTP is a possibility, but I think INFJ is better - I see Fe in Buddhist moral pronouncements (as observed in Theravada Buddhism, the closest form to what Siddharta Gautama preached), but I see no Se in Buddhism at all. In fact, I see a distinct DENIAL of Se - a denial of focus on worldly affairs and worldly focus.
 

Aleksei

Yeah, I can fly.
Joined
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ENTJ
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sx/sp
Confucius always struke me as more of an ISTJ. He was greately concerned with economic and social stability. He even thought of the human government as being an extension of the celestial government of the spirits, and thus corruption in human rulers could lead to natural disasters like floods and famines. He believed that if everyone could be persuaded to pull together and do their bit all the wars and plagues would come to an end and the world would return to the state changeless perfection it knew at the start of time.

I might have typed him as an ISFJ, but his social ideals seemed more Fi and Fe to me. He was involved in a debate about if it was acceptble for a man to touch a woman he wasn't married to if it was to stop her from drowning. Apparently, answering this question tuke quite a lot of thought, weighing up the pros and cons. In the end, he decided that it was ok, but I'm pretty sure an ISFJ would have been much more likely to just say "Yes!" What with their drive to action being Fe based.
He showed more Ne than he did Si. He tended to speak through allegory, through random connections between things. Made moral statements through veiled stories, and the like.
 

Aleksei

Yeah, I can fly.
Joined
Mar 10, 2010
Messages
3,626
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
7w6
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sx/sp
Confucius always struke me as more of an ISTJ. He was greately concerned with economic and social stability. He even thought of the human government as being an extension of the celestial government of the spirits, and thus corruption in human rulers could lead to natural disasters like floods and famines. He believed that if everyone could be persuaded to pull together and do their bit all the wars and plagues would come to an end and the world would return to the state changeless perfection it knew at the start of time.

I might have typed him as an ISFJ, but his social ideals seemed more Fi and Fe to me. He was involved in a debate about if it was acceptble for a man to touch a woman he wasn't married to if it was to stop her from drowning. Apparently, answering this question tuke quite a lot of thought, weighing up the pros and cons. In the end, he decided that it was ok, but I'm pretty sure an ISFJ would have been much more likely to just say "Yes!" What with their drive to action being Fe based.
He showed more Ne than he did Si. He tended to speak through allegory, through random connections between things. Made moral statements through veiled stories, and the like.
 

Speed Gavroche

Whisky Old & Women Young
Joined
Oct 20, 2008
Messages
5,152
MBTI Type
EsTP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Abraham: ENFJ, 1w2 sx/so, ESFp-Fi
Moses: ENFJ, 1w2 so/sp, ESFp-Fi
Jesus: INFJ, 1w2 so/sx, ISFj-Fi
Mohammed: ENTJ, 1w2 sx/sp, ESTp-Se
Siddharta Gautama: INFJ, 1w9 so/sx, INTp-Ni
Laozi: INFP, 9w1 so/sx, INTp-Ni
Confucius: ENFP, 1w9 so/sp, ENFj-Ni
Aleister Crowley: INTP, 4w5 sx/sp, INFp-Fe
Helena Blavatsky: INFP, 1w2 sx/so, INTp-Ni
Anton LaVey: ISTP, 8w7 sp/sx, ESTp-Se
Michael Aquino: INTJ, 8w9 sx/sp, INFp-Ni
Ayn Rand: INTJ, 1w2 sx/sp, INTp-Te
L. Ron Hubbard: Wintastic ENTP, 8w9 sp/sx, ENFj-Ni

Jesus:1w9 So/Sx
Ayn Rand:1w9 So/Sp

Don't forget Ron Paul 1w9 Sp/So, INFJ and Barack Obama ENFJ 3w4.
 

Aleksei

Yeah, I can fly.
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Why wing-9 for Jesus?
 

Speed Gavroche

Whisky Old & Women Young
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Quiet and withdrawing. Hippy.
 

KDude

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Jan 26, 2010
Messages
8,243
I agree that the Buddha is Ti, but I find INTP doubtful - the whole focus on meditating on one ideal, one vision is very Ni. I'm not sure what about him is Ne at all. ISTP is a possibility, but I think INFJ is better - I see Fe in Buddhist moral pronouncements (as observed in Theravada Buddhism, the closest form to what Siddharta Gautama preached), but I see no Se in Buddhism at all. In fact, I see a distinct DENIAL of Se - a denial of focus on worldly affairs and worldly focus.

He had a denial of Se in his quest. He started embracing some of it again though. His life story can be summed up as living from one extreme of indulgence to the other extreme of asceticism. And then it hit him - life should be more balanced. To use the summary from wikipedia (for the sake of brevity). His path came to him by finally denouncing asceticism.

Siddhartha and a group of five companions led by Kaundinya are then said to have set out to take their austerities even further. They tried to find enlightenment through deprivation of worldly goods, including food, practising self-mortification. After nearly starving himself to death by restricting his food intake to around a leaf or nut per day, he collapsed in a river while bathing and almost drowned. Siddhartha began to reconsider his path. Then, he remembered a moment in childhood in which he had been watching his father start the season's plowing. He attained a concentrated and focused state that was blissful and refreshing, the jhāna.

Enlightenment

According to the early Buddhist texts, after realizing that meditative jhana was the right path to awakening, but that extreme asceticism didn't work, Gautama discovered what Buddhists call the Middle Way—a path of moderation away from the extremes of self-indulgence and self-mortification. In a famous incident, after becoming starved and weakened, he is said to have accepted milk and rice pudding from a village girl named Sujata. Such was his emaciated appearance that she wrongly believed him to be a spirit that had granted her a wish.

Following this incident, Gautama was famously seated under a pipal tree - now known as the Bodhi tree - in Bodh Gaya, India, when he vowed never to arise until he had found the truth. Kaundinya and four other companions, believing that he had abandoned his search and become undisciplined, left. After a reputed 49 days of meditation, at the age of 35, he is said to have attained Enlightenment.


But the thing is, he had started life "normally" (albeit sheltered from the suffering and realities of people outside his palace).. then went ascetic.. then found balance.

Just something to think about. You could be right. I just thought INJs tend to start off differently. Where they're less grounded first, then indulge in Se as a way of finding their path. Not the other way around :tongue:
 
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