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Heroes, Villains, and MBTI

developer

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Something that I have been curious about for a long time is that in movies and books (like in real life) every MBTI type can be portrayed as a hero, but just as well as a vilain.

A good example are INTJs who often are used as the quintessential villain character, but just as well may represent the smart hero (esp. in crime novels and movies). A particularly striking example may be "Silence of the Lambs" where both the villain (Lecter) and the hero (Starling) are usually typed as INTJ.

As far as I can tell, this is true for all other types as well.

Now, on a very superficial level, this is a no - brainer: "... there are good and people everywhere...". If you think more about it, it is surprising, though: if MBTI captures (to a certain point , at least) the essence of a person's psychological structure, how can it be that something so central as morality does not find its way into the system ?

Any thoughts ?
 

arcticangel02

To the top of the world
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There are certainly some types who are less likely to be 'criminals', i.e. the ESxJ types especially have quite a powerful sense of 'right' and 'wrong', and value lawfulness. So you're not really going to find them as the typical hollywood villain.

But I think it's oversimplifying it. Any type can be good, any type can be bad, but 'villain' I think implies too much the hollywood/movie stereotype. Which, when it comes down to it, is quite a narrow band of personalities.

So, my question is, developer, how do you define 'villain'?
 

Mort Belfry

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how can it be that something so central as morality does not find its way into the system ?

Because morailty is subjective. Our own personal morality is created by our dominant functions and most people think they are good people and a lot of people think the people they're not are evil.

Hannibal Lecter's an interesting point, I've always wondered if there's a serial killer for every mbti type. I'd be surpirsed if there wasn't.
 

ygolo

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Of course when we put heroes and villains on screen they become incredibly stereotyped. Please keep that in mind as I relate the following half-baked opinion (It is nothing more than a musing, not something I believe).


I think xNTJs make the coolest classical villains because they conjure up adversaries that are difficult to beat. You can have them display both startling foresight, and iron will over their environment without suspending disbelief too much.

Also beating NT villains pleases audiences, because knocking NTs of their "high horses" is something all temperaments (including NTs) like to do.

NFs and SJs are hard to put in the role of classical villains, because they too often remind people of "good" people we know. You usually have to put SJs into some "stodgy" bureaucrat role, where they represent oppressive "establishment." NF may have to be drawn as histrionic, spoiled or controlling. They work better as villains in plots that rely on a strong psychological element and identification with the hero/heroine.

STPs are the most common hero/heroine in story lines. There is more to watch with STPs. They are either taking action, or creating some plan to take action. That is easy to make exciting on screen. Of course you can make them good bad guys for the same reasons.

Informative types (Behind-the-Scenes, Get-Things-Going), in general are hard to create leading (or lead villain) roles for. Because they are more naturally behind the scenes or getting things going in the story. Supporting roles, sidekicks, lackeys, etc. are better. If put in a leading role, will need a more directive partner or secondary character to move things along. Of course, a more psychological or emotional plot allows for more leeway in general.

xNFPs make excellent character/narrators, because they can naturally relate the other characters motives as well as the symbolism.

OK. I'll stop B.S.-ing now. I've had my fill.
 
Last edited:

developer

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So, my question is, developer, how do you define 'villain'?

Well, this answer probably is not very sophisticated: the villain usually is a person who intentionally does significant damage to others for personal gain. You may define "significant damage" as you like, and also "personal gain" can be viewed in different ways, but that is the quickest answer I can come up with.
 

developer

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You usually have to put SJs into some "stodgy" bureaucrat role, where they represent opressive "establishment." NF may have to be drawn as histrionic, spoiled or controlling. They work better as villains in plots that rely on a strong psychological element and identification with the hero/heroine.

That was also the way I was looking at it. (Evil) school directors or prison wardens are often portrayed as ISTJs in movies, and ENFJs are sometimes used for the role of the manipulative con artist.
 

Athenian200

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Something that I have been curious about for a long time is that in movies and books (like in real life) every MBTI type can be portrayed as a hero, but just as well as a vilain.

A good example are INTJs who often are used as the quintessential villain character, but just as well may represent the smart hero (esp. in crime novels and movies). A particularly striking example may be "Silence of the Lambs" where both the villain (Lecter) and the hero (Starling) are usually typed as INTJ.

As far as I can tell, this is true for all other types as well.

Now, on a very superficial level, this is a no - brainer: "... there are good and people everywhere...". If you think more about it, it is surprising, though: if MBTI captures (to a certain point , at least) the essence of a person's psychological structure, how can it be that something so central as morality does not find its way into the system ?

Any thoughts ?

It makes sense. People in their average state aren't strongly evil or good, so morality wouldn't be involved. But if things go a certain way or they make a certain choice, their morality can be corrupted (or exalted)... no matter who they are. SJ's could have this happen if the standards they've been taught become worthless because things change too quickly. N's could have this happen when they become so caught up in their vision that they neglect what's being sacrificed along the way, or not stopping to ensure that their current vision really is the right/ideal one.
 

Mort Belfry

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Would the Vogons from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy be typically SJ?
 

The_Liquid_Laser

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INTJ's are often the villains in movies and such, because they make the story more interesting. What makes a better story: a mastermind with a huge elaborate plan and many back up contingencies, or an ESFP that is just kind of winging it and doing what their emotions tell them from one moment to the next? An ESFP won't be an archvillain in action, adventure, sci-fi, etc... type movies, but they might be the "cheating spouse" type villain in a Lifetime movie. It depends on the story you want to tell as all types have positive and negative traits. But in an epic, larger than life story an xNTJ is going to make the most interesting villain.
 

JustDave

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Would the Vogons from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy be typically SJ?

IMHO, yes.

As I understand it they thrive on order, continuity, routine and are very pedantic. To me they are the quintessential ISTJ.
 

Totenkindly

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Something that I have been curious about for a long time is that in movies and books (like in real life) every MBTI type can be portrayed as a hero, but just as well as a vilain.

A good example are INTJs who often are used as the quintessential villain character, but just as well may represent the smart hero (esp. in crime novels and movies). A particularly striking example may be "Silence of the Lambs" where both the villain (Lecter) and the hero (Starling) are usually typed as INTJ.

Really? I agree with Lecter as INTJ, but Clarice comes off more as a spunky ISFJ. She could be something else, but INTJ?

I've always wondered if there's a serial killer for every mbti type. I'd be surpirsed if there wasn't.

Well, serial killer behavior can actually be distilled for patterns... so if there is a pattern attached, it means that some of the MBTI types are closer to that pattern and others are further away.

I think any MBTI type can be twisted, sadistic, and/or murderous, but they will go about it in very different ways, and usually for very different reasons. Serial killer is a term usually used to refer to a particular type of killer.

As far how morality finds its way into MBTI: Well, actually, "ethics" tends to find its way into the system. It is clear that each type has a general list of "good things" and "bad things." Some things that other types do are automatically read as wrong and sometimes even cruel and evil by a particular type; and vice versa. So the system does describe basic ethics, by explaining the relative values of each type.

But morality itself is not just determined by type, it is also determined by upbringing, cultural values, religious imposition, and so on. So religious morality per se is really not attached to MBTIc. An ISFJ can be whatever religion he grows up in; an INTJ can believe in any religion she wants, regardless of being INTJ. I don't see them as being directly attached to type. It's attached to upbringing, life experience, and the particulars of someone's existence.
 

developer

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Really? I agree with Lecter as INTJ, but Clarice comes off more as a spunky ISFJ. She could be something else, but INTJ?

On most MBTI websites she is one of the famous INTJs, and I tend to agree, at least partially. It's quite possible to consider F instead of T, but the way she solves Lecter's puzzles has pretty much N written all over it.
 

Randomnity

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I see heroes a fair bit of the time as NF. Most action heroes are SP, I think (xSTP generally). Maybe some xNTJs. Not too many INTP or SJ heroes, I think (at least I can't think of any).

Villains, most are TJ at least.
 

Kiddo

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After seeing Death Note and the perfect INTJ quintessential villain, in Light, I have to say they certainly do make terrifying villains. It was no surprise that it took an INTJ good guy to finally bring him down.

Every type can be narrowed down to classic villains. For example, an SJ villain would be Magneto who is the anti do-gooder type, He believes in a righteous approach to getting what he wants, but his aims are for justice and a fair stake for his people. Another SJ villian would be the Emperor from Star Wars. An SP villain, like the Green Goblin, is less into plans and more into the moment when it comes to dispatching heroes. They are terrifying because of their spontaneity. Then you have your smart NT villains like Lex Luther who always seem to be out for their own self interest and who scoff at the idea of "for the greater good".

Now NF villains are tough to pin down and I don't think there are many comic book versions. They tend to be the villains who fight villains. They are often the vigilantes and avengers. One of my favorite examples would be, the INFJ sniper in Phonebooth. It's horrifies me how easily I can slip into that character's skin. Only INFXs can understand that "I'll help you help yourself" passion.

Then you have your heroes. You have your Boy Scout SJ hero, good ol' Superman. Fighting for justice and the American way. Or my personal favorite, good old Yoda from Star Wars. You have your NT hero, Batman, the detective and guy who has no problem hanging a dude off a ledge to get answers. You have SP heroes who range from James Bond, to Rambo, to just about any high action type. Then you have your NF heroes like Luke Skywalker, whose inner battle seems to be more paramount than the outer one. It's strange, but NF heroes are always the ones who are constantly being tempted to the dark side.
 

Totenkindly

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On most MBTI websites she is one of the famous INTJs, and I tend to agree, at least partially. It's quite possible to consider F instead of T, but the way she solves Lecter's puzzles has pretty much N written all over it.

Not really. Perhaps as a lesser function. That's like saying S's aren't allowed to use their imagination without being N's.

If you truly look at her, she's not really that good at the N stuff. Lechter has to really beat her over the head to get her to think like him; he breathes N, she can't put two and two together. Any N she expresses usually occurs in context of S stimulation.

- She figures out where the pictures of the first girl are because she herself had a dancing music box and knew that a good hiding spot was in the top, underneath the cardboard.

- It takes her forever to figure out that Buffalo Bill is making a woman suit... she only gets it when she sees the dress pattern RIGHT in front of her face.

- She doesn't even see Jame Gumb as a real suspect until the moth lands -- another tangible S-style "clue" that fills her in.

An N person is making all of these hunches as they go, before the tangible evidence is provided. Clarice is much more a dogged, hunt down each little fact sort of person.

The one place where you can say, "Oh she figured out the anagram..." -- well, many xSFJs I've met enjoy doing puzzles like that... logic problems, word rearrangement, crossword puzzles, word finds.

And note the F: She thinks in terms of relationships... relationship to lecter, relationship to her father, relationship to crawford, relationship with her friend, relationship to the icky head of the psych ward... She is constantly thinking about how the victims felt, tangibly, identifying with their feelings. She's not detached; she is very much immersed in a relational web. It colors all of her thinking. She doesn't want to let any of them down.

Really, the biggest thing: An INTJ is one of the least likely types to steal a sheep from a man who trusts her and makes a foolish attempt to free it just by running away carrying it. That's a very big, typical, sentimental SF move -- not an NTJ strategy. At best, the INTJ would have tried to free the lamb "due to the indignity of it" or some sort of universal value... not just because she felt so bad for the vocal suffering of the lamb... and an INTJ would have planned something more likely to succeed, even when so young.

INTJ = Jodie Foster in "Contact." (ironically, the same actress.) If you sense any detachment in Starling, I think it is mostly just a holdover from Foster herself (who is INxJ, I'm sure).

Anyway... sorry for the derail.

* * * *

INTP villains don't do anything except design death machines. ;) You would find them as the scientist or engineer who discovers the truths and invents the things that a truly motivated villain would use in his/her plans at domination.

(I remember once seeing the "humor" issue of "What if...?" and they had Spiderman facing off against The Philosopher or some other weird villain in a study. Instead of fighting, the villain waxed philosophic as much as BlueWing does, for two entire pages, with Spidey occasionally making a reference to some established philosophical POV, which the villain would then counter... and the strip ended out of boredom for everyone... INTPs just make bad villains. They don't DO anything. :) )

One probable INTP hero I remember is the ship's architect in Cameron's "Titanic" movie. Andrews, I think his name was, but he was thoughtful and kind, far-seeing... sort of an actualized INTP. You could sense he had benevolence towards everyone, could see everyone's view, and chose to save Rose and go down with the ship because he felt badly that he had failed in its design and now many lives would be lost... even though he seemed to acknowledge it was not his direct fault and that the ship should have been fine. Just a very sweet, transcendent sort of man.

SPs do seem to dominate the action movie style stories. (Lots of SPs, for example, in the Mission Impossible movie series.)
 

Economica

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(Perhaps 'Clarice as INTJ' should get its own thread?)

I think she's INTJ, but that said, I agree with the following:

Really, the biggest thing: An INTJ is one of the least likely types to steal a sheep from a man who trusts her and makes a foolish attempt to free it just by running away carrying it.

It was the only part of the character that didn't resonate with me.
 

Totenkindly

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It was the only part of the character that didn't resonate with me.

Which is funny: Because it resonated with me. :) Even if I wouldn't have done it, I could still empathize with her deeply for doing it.
 

Mort Belfry

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She was quite young when she did it. Perhaps wasn't a fully developed INTJ yet.
 
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