Michael Jackson

[Little Linguist]

Umm is it just me or are those negative trait lists virtually identical?

You know what - I thought the exact same thing lol.

It makes you wonder what the differences between INFP and ISFP really are. And YES I have read the whole thread and YES it's still not clear.

 

[Chloe]

I think ISFP. Soneone nentioned his lyrics... who are definately S not N.

 

[simulatedworld]

Here's my experience with the two:

Less fantasy-oriented, ISFPs are generally more "earthy"; their interests are more likely to involve physically tangible experiences. They often have a natural sense of visual/spacial relations and aesthetics (their homes are frequently uniquely decorated or arranged to make an obvious visual impact), and their awareness of what's current, popular, "in" and so on is often something they pride themselves on.

They give this disarming sense of calm contentedness, almost as if they're too agreeable (and indeed, young ISFP males will sometimes overcompensate for their natural introversion and try to be social supermen), but upon getting to know them you'll find that they usually are some of the nicest people out there. Watching them "perform", in whatever way they may do it, is inspirational. As someone said, ISFPs are known for giving people the fewest reasons to dislike them.

ISFPs are more likely to "cut and run" on an impulse if their freedom or individuality feels stifled by current situations. (I have one ISFP friend who, much to his parents' chagrin, decided after high school to go wander around New Zealand with no particular idea of what to do or where to stay, instead of starting college or a job.)

ISFPs, like any SP type, learn best with a hands-on experiential approach where their natural ability to use tools to manipulate the physical environment will serve them best. They're typically very set in their ethical ways, but are impatient with a lot of abstraction and don't often feel that morality requires a tremendous amount of in-depth analysis--it just comes naturally. Do what you feel seems right at the time, dude!

Both types give really inspired performances when they're into something, but INFPs are typically identifiable by their comparative lack of attention to clothing, fashion and overall physical appearance.

INFPs are basically ethical perfectionists to the point of absurdity, the ultimate idealists. (Like the INTP's obsession with logical consistency, except applied to ethical consistency instead.) You can identify them by their extraordinary attention to moral perfection. If you get to know them, you'll find that they usually exhibit a never-quite-good-enough attitude about virtually everything important to them.

One of the biggest differences is that INFPs hold grudges, and when they dislike someone they're very good at imagining more reasons to dislike that person or picking up hostility from that person when none is really intended (Ne services Fi's ends.) Neither type is openly confrontational, but when ISFPs are offended, they're more likely to just remove themselves from the situation, quit worrying about it and move on the next thing. INFPs dwell.

On the plus side, auxiliary Pe makes them appear outwardly flexible, calm, open, accomodating and generally very open to and respectful of the ideas and feelings of others. INFPs can provide terrific moral guidance, and you can always trust them to remain loyal to their friends and their ideals.

INFPs in a social environment are typically quieter than ISFPs, and much more interested in personal one-on-one conversation than in whatever activities (ISFPs are much more activity-oriented) are going on at the party--video games, sports, drinking games, what have you...ISFPs are more likely to be *doing* something. INFPs are far more likely to suffer from "NP never gets anything done" syndrome, spending too much time dreaming up pie-in-the-sky visions for the future and not enough actually making them happen.

INFPs are more likely to reach for broad, idealistic moral ideals. They're more likely to daydream than ISFPs (who are busy doing real things) and often hold high ideals about change or service toward society in general and how progress might be made. Though typically fairly quiet, if one of these areas of interest comes up they will leap into a conversation and provide often unexpected keen insights and substantial conversation. It's pretty cool sometimes. A stereotypical INFP college major might be philosophy.

INFPs remain outwardly very very chill until their ideals are violated, at which point they will become rigid and inflexible. You're seeing auxiliary Ne most of the time when they're interacting with you, but when some external threat causes Fi to take over, there will be no convincing him otherwise--think INTP who's sure he's logically correct about something. It can be a little silly at times, but a balanced INFP will provide terrific, very personal conversation and companionship.

 

[INTPness]

Here's my experience with the two:

Less fantasy-oriented, ISFPs are generally more "earthy"; their interests are more likely to involve physically tangible experiences. They often have a natural sense of visual/spacial relations and aesthetics (their homes are frequently uniquely decorated or arranged to make an obvious visual impact), and their awareness of what's current, popular, "in" and so on is often something they pride themselves on.

They give this disarming sense of calm contentedness, almost as if they're too agreeable (and indeed, young ISFP males will sometimes overcompensate for their natural introversion and try to be social supermen), but upon getting to know them you'll find that they usually are some of the nicest people out there. Watching them "perform", in whatever way they may do it, is inspirational. As someone said, ISFPs are known for giving people the fewest reasons to dislike them.

ISFPs are more likely to "cut and run" on an impulse if their freedom or individuality feels stifled by current situations. (I have one ISFP friend who, much to his parents' chagrin, decided after high school to go wander around New Zealand with no particular idea of what to do or where to stay, instead of starting college or a job.)

ISFPs, like any SP type, learn best with a hands-on experiential approach where their natural ability to use tools to manipulate the physical environment will serve them best. They're typically very set in their ethical ways, but are impatient with a lot of abstraction and don't often feel that morality requires a tremendous amount of in-depth analysis--it just comes naturally. Do what you feel seems right at the time, dude!

Both types give really inspired performances when they're into something, but INFPs are typically identifiable by their comparative lack of attention to clothing, fashion and overall physical appearance.

INFPs are basically ethical perfectionists to the point of absurdity, the ultimate idealists. (Like the INTP's obsession with logical consistency, except applied to ethical consistency instead.) You can identify them by their extraordinary attention to moral perfection. If you get to know them, you'll find that they usually exhibit a never-quite-good-enough attitude about virtually everything important to them.

One of the biggest differences is that INFPs hold grudges, and when they dislike someone they're very good at imagining more reasons to dislike that person or picking up hostility from that person when none is really intended (Ne services Fi's ends.) Neither type is openly confrontational, but when ISFPs are offended, they're more likely to just remove themselves from the situation, quit worrying about it and move on the next thing. INFPs dwell.

On the plus side, auxiliary Pe makes them appear outwardly flexible, calm, open, accomodating and generally very open to and respectful of the ideas and feelings of others. INFPs can provide terrific moral guidance, and you can always trust them to remain loyal to their friends and their ideals.

INFPs in a social environment are typically quieter than ISFPs, and much more interested in personal one-on-one conversation than in whatever activities (ISFPs are much more activity-oriented) are going on at the party--video games, sports, drinking games, what have you...ISFPs are more likely to be *doing* something. INFPs are far more likely to suffer from "NP never gets anything done" syndrome, spending too much time dreaming up pie-in-the-sky visions for the future and not enough actually making them happen.

INFPs are more likely to reach for broad, idealistic moral ideals. They're more likely to daydream than ISFPs (who are busy doing real things) and often hold high ideals about change or service toward society in general and how progress might be made. Though typically fairly quiet, if one of these areas of interest comes up they will leap into a conversation and provide often unexpected keen insights and substantial conversation. It's pretty cool sometimes. A stereotypical INFP college major might be philosophy.

INFPs remain outwardly very very chill until their ideals are violated, at which point they will become rigid and inflexible. You're seeing auxiliary Ne most of the time when they're interacting with you, but when some external threat causes Fi to take over, there will be no convincing him otherwise--think INTP who's sure he's logically correct about something. It can be a little silly at times, but a balanced INFP will provide terrific, very personal conversation and companionship.

Based on this, I think MJ is INFP. Just kidding. I think this description is very accurate. I've dated both INFP and now an ISFP and this is pretty accurate. Maybe he is less "N" than my INFP g/f and more "N" than my ISFP g/f. What I'm saying is - maybe he's IxFP. Either way, he was one heck of a performer. Saw him in concert when I was a kid and I was amazed even then.

 

[htb]

My guess is INFP. But some the arguments for ISFP are very convincing, so I think it could be either....

ISFP, indeed. I haven't read all the arguments, but they correspond with behavioral differences between the two.

I recently watched an interview from the set of the "Beat It" video. Jackson doesn't show any of the deluded incoherence or vanity from his later years -- which, I think, is mistaken for the figuration of an INFP -- but is modest, and even diffident, in a way that ISFPs can be when judged personally. At this early, innocent stage in his career, Jackson incriminates himself as a friendless man; quite unlike ESFPs, no matter how troubled their lives.

 

[NewEra]

I think he falsifies a public 'SP' image, especially in his younger life. Later in life, he became more comfortable being himself, and seemingly showed his true INFP nature with his songs, music videos, and interviews.

 

[Jaguar]

Neither type is openly confrontational, but when ISFPs are offended, they're more likely to just remove themselves from the situation, quit worrying about it and move on the next thing. INFPs dwell.

Santa Barbara District Attorney Tom Sneddon was the guy who wanted to take down M.J., no matter what.
Jackson was so pissed off, he wrote a song about the guy.
Sneddon was asked for commentary when he heard Jackson wrote this song about him.
It's widely known the name was altered in the lyrics.



These are the words of someone who dwells.

D.S. Written and composed by Michael Jackson

They wanna get my ass
Dead or alive
You know he really tried to take me
Down by surprise
I bet he missioned with the CIA
He don't do half what he say
Dom Sheldon is a cold man
Dom Sheldon is a cold man
Dom Sheldon is a cold man
Dom Sheldon is a cold man

He out shock in every single way
He'll stop at nothing just to get his political say
He think he hot cause he's BSTA
I bet he never had a social life anyway

You think he brother with the KKK?
I bet his mother never taught him
Right anyway
He want your vote just to remain DA.
He don't do half what he say

Dom Sheldon is a cold man
Dom Sheldon is a cold man
Dom Sheldon is a cold man
Dom Sheldon is a cold man

Does he send letters to the FBI?
Did he say to either do it or die?

Dom Sheldon is a cold man
Dom Sheldon is a cold man
Dom Sheldon is a cold man
Dom Sheldon is a cold man

On a side note, let's cut the nonsense with the S/N dispute.
He could easily score close to 50-50 on S/N like so many people do.
To continuously ignore that obvious possibility, is ridiculous.

 

[heart]

Folks when you see so much N in him consider this: He's an ISFP who was neurotically stuck in Fi-Ni loop. If he were an INFP with that much use of Ne, he would have had more perspective on things that he did. Spacy INFP are stuck in Fi-Si and their creativity crumbles. The tertiary function is also the "childlike" function. People using tertiary relief are using a childlike part of themselves. Greater use of Aux function should make a person seem more mature not childlike.

His N is more the extreme individualistic N of Ni, but got into a negative, super paranoid venue. jmo.

When INFP fake extroversion, it most often looks like ESTJ, not SP.

 

[simulatedworld]

Jaguar:

You have a fine point. He seems fairly borderline...we're just speculating. If he wasn't borderline we probably wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.

Today on TV I saw an interview where he said: "I believe in perfection. And we try to reach for that in everything we do."

Now that could just be something his publicist told him to say, but it does sound pretty INFP.

 

[Mondo]

The INFP and ISFP are remarkably different.

The former is abstract and cooperative.
The latter is concrete and utilitarian.

Look at it this way!

What made Jackson the happiest was when he was adored by his fans- he was happiest when his art came to life. An Idealist is happiest when they are able to pursue some out-there ideal.

Basically, what I am saying is that Jackson is an ISFP (or ESFP) but he isn't an INFP.
It seems the people who are arguing that Jackson is an Intuitive are trying to argue that certain traits such as introspection and eccentricity are unique to Intuitives- when they are not!!

 

[simulatedworld]

^ word

 

[Jaguar]

Jaguar:

You have a fine point. He seems fairly borderline...we're just speculating. If he wasn't borderline we probably wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.

Today on TV I saw an interview where he said: "I believe in perfection. And we try to reach for that in everything we do."

Now that could just be something his publicist told him to say, but it does sound pretty INFP.

I saw the same interview you did. I recognize those exact words.

In addition, that is not the only interview where M.J. called himself a perfectionist.
I've heard him say that at least 10 times over the decades.
He wanted to outdo anyone and anything that had ever been done.
He was a major innovator.
It was John Landis, who directed the thriller video, who spoke so much about Jackson being into transformation and innovation.
A strong S is not into innovation, they would be into what is conventional.
What was so "conventional" about Jackson?
Not much.

And don't anyone give me this ISFP/INFP are different.
That's MBTI brain-washed bullshit.
There are thousands if not hundreds of thousands of possible types--not just 16.
Any intelligent person knows that, especially an alleged ENTP like yourself,
who knows there are endless possibilities, and alternative theories to be had.

Frankly, I think Jackson probably had one hell of a unique function order.
Certainly not any order that would come out of the MBTI cereal box.

 

[simulatedworld]

^ Fair enough. I'd still say that of the 16 arbitrarily imagined archetypes, though, he falls closest to either INFP or ISFP.

 

[dotdalidot]

Aw, I don't know what type he is. But I feel so bad for him! I wish I knew him when he was alive and we would be best buddies and I'd heal him from his pains, whatever they may be!

To add to the topic:

Maybe for Jackson his music, no matter what form it took(whether abstract or concrete) was just a form of therapy for him? Maybe performing was just a way for him to engage a different character and allowed him to disassociate, if for a while, with the bitter, cold reality? I mean every eccentricity of his was done for purposes of escaping reality, right? Never land ranch? Sounds very intuitive to me. But I don't really know, I don't like to generalize. But for purposes of this thread, I'm inclined to believe he was INFP. Who knows though? Maybe this has nothing to do with type, but more with personality.

 

[Jeffster]

A strong S is not into innovation, they would be into what is conventional.

Nah. That's SJs, not SPs.

 

[Valuable_Money]

I saw the same interview you did. I recognize those exact words.

In addition, that is not the only interview where M.J. called himself a perfectionist.
I've heard him say that at least 10 times over the decades.
He wanted to outdo anyone and anything that had ever been done.
He was a major innovator.
It was John Landis, who directed the thriller video, who spoke so much about Jackson being into transformation and innovation.
A strong S is not into innovation, they would be into what is conventional.
What was so "conventional" about Jackson?
Not much.

And don't anyone give me this ISFP/INFP are different.
That's MBTI brain-washed bullshit.
There are thousands if not hundreds of thousands of possible types--not just 16.
Any intelligent person knows that, especially an alleged ENTP like yourself,
who knows there are endless possibilities, and alternative theories to be had.

Frankly, I think Jackson probably had one hell of a unique function order.
Certainly not any order that would come out of the MBTI cereal box.

That may be true but the whole point of this thread is to specualte on witch of these cereal box types he is. Were all aware its a barstool discussion, you dont have to remind us that ninjas never fought dinosours, we know, but we like to discuss who would win just for the fun of it.

 

[Jaguar]

Maybe for Jackson his music, no matter what form it took(whether abstract or concrete) was just a form of therapy for him? Maybe performing was just a way for him to engage a different character and allowed him to disassociate, if for a while, with the bitter, cold reality? I mean every eccentricity of his was done for purposes of escaping reality, right?

Considering his childhood, who wouldn't want to escape?
His father was an abusive SOB.
Beat the kids all the time.
Someone should have kicked his father's ass, ages ago.
I can't stand people who beat kids.

 

[dotdalidot]

Considering his childhood, who wouldn't want to escape?
His father was an abusive SOB.
Beat the kids all the time.
Someone should have kicked his father's ass, ages ago.
I can't stand people who beat kids.

Ugh! I know me too. That's why I feel so bad for him I wish I could give him a hug. If I was the ass kicking type of person I probably would. :steam:

 

[NewEra]

Maybe for Jackson his music, no matter what form it took(whether abstract or concrete) was just a form of therapy for him? Maybe performing was just a way for him to engage a different character and allowed him to disassociate, if for a while, with the bitter, cold reality? I mean every eccentricity of his was done for purposes of escaping reality, right? Never land ranch? Sounds very intuitive to me. But I don't really know, I don't like to generalize. But for purposes of this thread, I'm inclined to believe he was INFP. Who knows though? Maybe this has nothing to do with type, but more with personality.

Yeah, that's my argument too.

Considering his childhood, who wouldn't want to escape?
His father was an abusive SOB.
Beat the kids all the time.
Someone should have kicked his father's ass, ages ago.
I can't stand people who beat kids.

Bastard didn't get anything from Michael's will, thank goodness.

 

[NewEra]

I saw the same interview you did. I recognize those exact words.

In addition, that is not the only interview where M.J. called himself a perfectionist.
I've heard him say that at least 10 times over the decades.
He wanted to outdo anyone and anything that had ever been done.
He was a major innovator.
It was John Landis, who directed the thriller video, who spoke so much about Jackson being into transformation and innovation.
A strong S is not into innovation, they would be into what is conventional.
What was so "conventional" about Jackson?
Not much.

And don't anyone give me this ISFP/INFP are different.
That's MBTI brain-washed bullshit.
There are thousands if not hundreds of thousands of possible types--not just 16.
Any intelligent person knows that, especially an alleged ENTP like yourself,
who knows there are endless possibilities, and alternative theories to be had.

Frankly, I think Jackson probably had one hell of a unique function order.
Certainly not any order that would come out of the MBTI cereal box.

Yeah, good point. There are actually thousands of types (not just 16), based on function order.