Michael Jackson

[simulatedworld]

Token...we've been over this...you're BLACK, you know how to play the bass guitar!

 

[luminous beam]

I agree with ISFP. I can see the Fi function being used first and foremost, internally judging and evaluating things according to his own ideals, as opposed to Fe, which would adapt more to other's ideals (he was very strange, most evidently he did not adapt or conform to others). Se makes him very indulgent in the present moment, ex. plastic surgery, spending millions in Neverland ranch, Bubbles (lol). Ni, which probably helped his creativity as it's pretty abstract and can be a bit "out there" creating mental images and things at will. Te probably helped him structure himself in such a way that might've helped him achieve the perfectionism he desired.

 

[NewEra]

That was a pretty good explanation, simulated.

Black people are born equipped with perfect Se and rhythm.

 

[simulatedworld]

*bows*

I actually play bass in this reggae band with a hardcore hippie ISFP frontman, and these MJ lyrics like in "We Are the World" sound exactly like his.

Even when he's being idealistic about peace and love and such, there's no mistaking his position--he even says outright, "Obama is my leader" in one lyric (the dude in my reggae band, I mean.) NFPs are more likely to just imply metaphorically, build a little bit of a puzzle for you to ponder and hopefully come to whatever humanitarian/philosophical conclusion they wanted you to get. (For an example, see John Mayer or Brandon Boyd.)

MJ's lyrics never have any such puzzles, and there's never any mistaking his well-intentioned meaning. He was astronomically successful because his music appeals so directly to people's emotions (and desire to dance to a beat) on a base physical level--no ambiguity here. Everybody can identify in some way if only he allows himself to.

 

[INTPness]

You make good points, simulated world. I was going to present some songs as examples, but then you showed how those lyrics could come from an ISFP. Another reason, I always thought he was N is because he cared so DEEPLY for humanity and for the world. A lot of people would probably dispute that and say, "If he cared so much, why did he hang his child over the balcony and do weird stuff with kids, blah, blah, blah". Bottom line, he was compassionate about humanity as a whole. He cared deeply about the plight of ALL children and of those that were hungry and in need. He was very hurt by various injustices that were happening around the globe.

Now, I'm certainly not saying that a sensor cannot be all of those things, but it's been my experience that sensors are primarily concerned with what is directly in front of them. In other words, if they were going to fight injustices, they might focus on the community they live in or the individuals that they know personally. For example, when I talk to my ISFP g/f about global injustices, her response is usually something like, "We can't always worry about the whole world. There are people right here that we can help." She tends to take me AWAY from the global, big picture and into the more concrete, here and now. Every time I ever heard Jackson, it seemed that he was DEEPLY troubled/affected by the plight of humanity - mainly children (yes, this is probably because of his childhood, as you mentioned) - but children around the world - on a global scale. He undertook and helped initiate HUGE efforts so that he could make a difference worldwide. He didn't just want to be a better father to his own children than his parents were to him - he wanted to make the world a better place by affecting entire nations and continents. I don't know too many sensors that think like that.

 

[proteanmix]

When I type musicians one of my biggest sources for a type is their lyrics. First of all I look to see what the subject matter and styling of their lyrics are. Secondly, I look at what songs they choose to sing. Even though they may not write all their lyrics, once they get artistic and creative control they choose the songs they sing.

These are the songs written solely by MJ:

Don't Stop 'til You Get Enough
Workin' Day and Night
Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'
The Girl Is Mine
Beat It
Billie Jean
Bad
The Way You Make Me Feel
Speed Demon
Liberian Girl
Another Part of Me
I Just Can't Stop Loving You
Dirty Diana
Smooth Criminal
Leave Me Alone
Heal the World
Black or White
Who Is It
Give In to Me
Will You Be There
Speechless
The Lost Children

He co-wrote virtually everything else on his albums from Off The Wall and later.

Based on these songs and his behavior I've always typed him as an INFP. I think some of his earlier songs reflect a youthful attitude which isn't easy to tell if it's Se or Ne. If I go by his music I'd say IsFP, but if I go by his behavior I'd say INFP. I just don't see an ISFP building a ranch and calling it Neverland where he could be an eternal Peter Pan and play with other children or pulling the fairly elaborate PR stunts he has. I don't see an INFP being the kinesthetic genius he was though which was a huge part of his appeal. And to dominate POP music you've got to appeal to a large audience which is predominantly sensor. That's a factor as well.

Anybody read his autobiography?

 

[Mondo]

Okay let's look at the types he cannot be under any circumstance..

INTJ/ISTJ/ENTJ/ESTJ/INFJ/ENFJ/ISTP/ESTP

Given a stretch.. the other eight types have some plausibility.

Introverted or Extraverted?
Concrete or Abstract?
Utilitarian or Cooperative?

Personally, Michael Jackson definitely doesn't strike me as Cooperative.
So NT or SP?
Which do you think makes more sense?

Most of you will probably say SP of these two- which is correct IMO. We have ISFP or ESFP.
It really matters by how shy Jackson was. Ironically, the shyer he was- the more Extraverted he probably was in life- we have to figure out how much of his reclusiveness was due to him being socially anxious or was it due to a true desire to be alone- regardless of anxiety.

 

[Thalassa]

You make good points, simulated world. I was going to present some songs as examples, but then you showed how those lyrics could come from an ISFP. Another reason, I always thought he was N is because he cared so DEEPLY for humanity and for the world. A lot of people would probably dispute that and say, "If he cared so much, why did he hang his child over the balcony and do weird stuff with kids, blah, blah, blah". Bottom line, he was compassionate about humanity as a whole. He cared deeply about the plight of ALL children and of those that were hungry and in need. He was very hurt by various injustices that were happening around the globe.

Now, I'm certainly not saying that a sensor cannot be all of those things, but it's been my experience that sensors are primarily concerned with what is directly in front of them. In other words, if they were going to fight injustices, they might focus on the community they live in or the individuals that they know personally. For example, when I talk to my ISFP g/f about global injustices, her response is usually something like, "We can't always worry about the whole world. There are people right here that we can help." She tends to take me AWAY from the global, big picture and into the more concrete, here and now. Every time I ever heard Jackson, it seemed that he was DEEPLY troubled/affected by the plight of humanity - mainly children (yes, this is probably because of his childhood, as you mentioned) - but children around the world - on a global scale. He undertook and helped initiate HUGE efforts so that he could make a difference worldwide. He didn't just want to be a better father to his own children than his parents were to him - he wanted to make the world a better place by affecting entire nations and continents. I don't know too many sensors that think like that.

Ahh...ISFPs are perfectly capable of sympathizing with the plight of humanity. They aren't ESTJs.

But seriously, I think this is not a good way to tell if The Gloved One was an INFP or ISFP.

It's more to the point that his lyrics said things like "show them how funky and strong is your fight, it doesn't matter who's wrong or right, just beat it" and stuff like that. He had the straight-forward simplicity in his lyrics of an SP, I agree with SimulatedWorld.

Michael also was extremely, extremely focused on things like dancing, personal image, and fashion. I'm not saying that an INFP couldn't be interested in those things, but really, I don't think to the extent that Michael was.

 

[Thalassa]

I don't think Jackson is an S for 1 second.

Why not? He was an ARTISTIC genius which is a very, very S strength. He was a musical Composer and a Peacemaker. ISFPs are known as Artists, Composers, and Peacemakers.

He was a skilled dancer, a fashion maven, and a trend-setter. Michael's world was EXTREMELY visual, which is an S thing, too. He was physically flashy.


.

I've always related to "INxx" people when I see them in interviews and there was something about Michael that I related to. I could sense his uncomfortableness in an up-close interview (he had that "get me the heck out of here cuz I'm not comfortable exposing my inner self to the whole world" look/feeling to him). I could see that he had trouble stating things clearly when expected to come up with an answer on the spot, which is common for IN's because we usually need to look inward and think/ponder through things before we can state it clearly.

ISFPs can have a hard time clearly articulating what they really mean to say, especially if it's something important to them.

He saw things on a global scale, he saw the big picture. I know 2 ISFP's and they are jokesters and not the super-duper reflective/pondering types (they can be reflective, but it's not like a huge part of their personality, like it is for IN's).

Ss are not all detail-obsessed, obsessive compulsive dummies. ESFPs sound much more like what you are describing in terms of jokesters not being very reflective..or if they really were ISFPs, did you know them well enough to make such a judgement?

There always seemed to be a well of emotions and feelings and inner workings going on inside of Michael Jackson, when I saw him in interviews.

ISFPs can have a well of emotions and inner workings. Notice the I and the F.

 

[simulatedworld]

^ Good points mostly, but I don't see artistry as inherently more associated with S or N or any other letter/function.

 

[Lightyear]

I was also thinking about MJ's enneagram type.

My guess is either 4w3 or 3w4. He had the whole emotional "suffering artist" and "I must be unique" thing of a 4 going on but a lot of icons also tend to be 3s since at their best they can be a great example to humanity what it is capable of (and at their worst, well, the opposite; no middle ground there)

 

[Thalassa]

I was also thinking about MJ's enneagram type.

My guess is either 4w3 or 3w4. He had the whole emotional "suffering artist" and "I must be unique" thing of a 4 going on but a lot of icons also tend to be 3s since at their best they can be a great example to humanity what it is capable of (and at their worst, well, the opposite; no middle ground there)

Good call. There are sites that already have MJ pegged as ISFP, 4w3. But I could also see the 3w4 possibility.

 

[NewEra]

The question for Michael was is he more NeSi or SeNi ? That would determine IxFP.

 

[Lightyear]

If you see this link he was strongly Se I would say; very, very appearance and image-conscious. This guy let a supersized statue of himself float down the Thames after all, I can't really see an INFP doing that.

Michael Jackson's 10 Most Iconic Looks - MUST-HAVE JACKET - Michael Jackson : People.com

 

[booyalab]

I never saw ISFPs as performers, I always had them pegged down as the quiet, artsy cousins of the über-charismatic ESFPs (to me the quintessential performers) who prefer to stay in the background. Guess I am wrong.

There are two kinds of performers: the ESFP kind who are always "on" and you just have to catch them on a good day to have something to show the audience and the ISFP kind who are usually quiet but can channel their Se side if they have the right medium. The latter are more likely to be great artists (Prince, Mozart, Fred Astaire) because they need the outlet in order to perform. The former can do it in their backyard.

 

[Thursday]

ISFP like no other
too bad the guy had a rough life and never got the privacy he so needed
and as soon as he died, he was put on a T-shirt and sold

 

[mwv6r]

My guess is INFP. But some the arguments for ISFP are very convincing, so I think it could be either....

I think that one thing that makes it difficult to guess his type is that because of childhood abuse he probably never matured past a child's emotional maturity. The negative descriptions of INFP vs. ISFP (such as on personalitypage.com) might provide some insight:

Negative Traits of INFPs -->

* May be extremely sensitive to any kind of criticism
* May perceive criticism where none was intended
* May have skewed or unrealistic ideas about reality
* May be unable to acknowledge or hear anything that goes against their personal ideas and opinions
* May blame their problems on other people, seeing themselves as victims who are treated unfairly
* May have great anger, and show this anger with rash outpourings of bad temper
* May be unaware of appropriate social behavior
* May be oblivious to their personal appearance, or to appropriate dress
* May come across as eccentric, or perhaps even generally strange to others, without being aware of it
* May be unable to see or understand anyone else's point of view
* May value their own opinions and feelings far above others
* May be unaware of how their behavior affects others
* May be oblivious to other people's need
* May feel overwhelmed with tension and stress when someone expresses disagreement with the INFP, or disapproval of the INFP
* May develop strong judgments that are difficult to unseed against people who they perceive have been oppressive or suppressive to them [life-long ill-will toward his abusive father and older brother Tito, if I'm not mistaken]
* Under great stress, may obsess about details that are unimportant to the big picture of things
* Under stress, may obsessively brood over a problem repeatedly
* May have unreasonable expectations of others
* May have difficulty maintaining close relationships, due to unreasonable expectations [save for a small number of close friends, is it fair to say that his inner circle was a revolving door of people?]


Negative Traits of ISFPs -->

* May be extremely sensitive to any kind of criticism
* May be unable to see the opportunities inherent to a situation
* May perceive criticism where none was intended
* May have skewed or unrealistic ideas about reality
* May be unable to acknowledge or hear anything that goes against their personal ideas and opinions
* May blame their problems on other people, seeing themselves as victims who are treated unfairly
* May have great anger, and show this anger with rash outpourings of bad temper
* May be unaware of appropriate social behavior
* May be oblivious to their personal appearance, or to appropriate dress
* May come across as eccentric, or perhaps even generally strange to others, without being aware of it
* May be unable to see or understand anyone else's point of view
* May value their own opinions and feelings far above others
* May be unaware of how their behavior affects others
* May be oblivious to other people's need
* May feel overwhelmed with tension and stress when someone expresses disagreement with the ISFP, or disapproval of the ISFP
* May develop strong judgments that are difficult to unseed against people who they perceive have been oppressive or suppressive to them
* Under great stress, may feel out of control and fearful, dwelling on the "dark side" of things


Hmm... I need some time to mull that over more so I'll just keep going with why my tentative gut reaction is INFP.

I think of INFPs (unhealthy INFPs at least) as the quintessential tortured artists. Also, Michael Jackson was certainly VERY unusual, and I think Ne's are the most unusual, nonconventional types. I feel that ISxPs are not bound by convention, but nonetheless they wouldn't stray as far from it as Michael Jackson did. Then again, there's his immaturity and drug use that could be clouding the picture.

Many posters mentioned MJ's incredible dance skill as being an argument for ISFP. I think that's possible but there may be another interpretation. I think of Se types as being extremely confident in their skin and having an earthy, sensual presence. That was not MJ. He seemed gaunt and awkward in public appearances, though of course when he stepped on stage to dance it was electric. There was something transcendent about his dancing skills. He was extremely innovative in that regard, which I think of as an Ne trait.

Then again, I was at a party this past weekend and we played Michael Jackson non-stop as a tribute, and one of the shyest, quietest ISxPs I've ever met got up in the middle of a song and did the most dead-on MJ dance moves I've ever seen in my life. Seriously, it was incredible. I was like, whaaaat?? How do you have all that inside you??? So what do I know. Maybe MJ was ISFP after all.

 

[/DG/]

He is definitely ISFP or INFP. I'm leaning more towards ISFP.

 

[simulatedworld]

Umm is it just me or are those negative trait lists virtually identical?

 

[Lightyear]

There was something transcendent about his dancing skills.

I love that sentence, normally when I think of the term "transcendent" I think of some hippy under a tree trying to reach spiritual enlightenment (or something similar) and I just love that Michael Jackson used a physical skill like dancing to point people to something higher that goes beyond themselves and their little existence. RIP the King.