• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Fictional Type Clichés

Tamske

Writing...
Joined
Oct 22, 2009
Messages
1,764
MBTI Type
ENTP
Here's a guide to fictional type clichés (is that with an accent in English?)

Rule #1: Feelers are always better than Thinkers. An F can be a bad guy, but only a T can be truly evil.
Rule #2: Extraverts are always dumber and less important than Introverts. An E can be a sidekick, but the hero is an I.
Rule #3: Sensors are always dumber than Intuitives. Intuition sees the world on a deeper level you know (this is not my opinion).
Rule #4: Perceivers are always better than Judgers.

Which results in:
Guardians:
ESTJ: bad, but too dumb to be really evil. A stick-in-the-mud boss who hinders the hero who wants to do things his way. Becoming an F can redeem this type.
ISTJ: guard, plumber... who gives practical advice, but never gets an important role. Despite the TJ combo this one can actually be good (but never good enough for hero or mentor roles)
ESFJ: the overbearing mother. ESFJs are always female. Well-meaning (she's an F after all) but, as a dumb E-S and an uptight J, hinders the hero in his quest.
ISFJ: nurse, physician... Well-meaning and caring, tries to hold the hero in the hospital when hero wants to get up and about.

Artists:
ESTP: friend of the hero, tavern guest who divulges some information needed for the quest, grunt in the villain's army who can be bribed.
ISTP: no important roles, can play a part as weaponsmith.
ESFP: funny and dumb (of course *eyeroll*) sidekick. This (certainly good) one might defreeze and redeem the INTP.
ISFP: less cunning than the villain, the all-good FP combination, the FiNi angst: this is hero material.

Rationals:
ENTJ: evil emperor. Nothing can redeem this type.
INTJ: archvillain - as both I and N he's the smartest one around, and as both T and J the most evil. Nothing can redeem this type.
ENTP: being a P can redeem the T: an enthousiastic forgetful genius, can work either for the Good or the Evil side but is more interested in his own inventions than in good or evil.
INTP: the dork genius cooped up with computers (or the equivalent available in the setting), more seen as a failure than as a danger/ally, despite him being one of the smartest types. This type is redeemed by getting friends.

Idealists:
ENFJ: a cunning manipulator (if more J) or a loving teacher (if more F)
INFJ: wise IN, good F but falls back at the crucial moment due to J: mentor material here.
ENFP: another sidekick, funny and whimsical
INFP: shaman, true love of the hero... in all cases, this type tells the hero to 'follow his heart' and frees him from his angst.

Feel free to add more clichés :)
Just to be clear: it's not my intention to say all fiction writers should follow these rules. On the contrary. It's just an observation: most (not all, I know) fiction follows them... and choosing one of them to break (or all of them) can be a rich source of inspiration.

This amateur writer is mining it already... Yay for my new INTP hero!
 

KDude

New member
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
8,243
the FiNi angst: this is hero material.

RAWR :SaiyanSmilie_anim:

One comment on ENFJ, I think they can play the (somewhat) illogical but inspiring crusader and agent of change for his/her friends. The really fired up type who wants to shoot for the impossible. An orator maybe..Not just the teacher.
 

miss fortune

not to be trusted
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
20,589
Enneagram
827
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
dammit... I'm always going to be stuck in the friendly pub guest who talks a lot category :boohoo:
 

Moiety

New member
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
5,996
MBTI Type
ISFJ
"Intuition sees the world on a deeper level you know (this is not my opinion)."

This is true. The problem you are having is in your definition of deeper and how you relate it to better in some way.
 

miss fortune

not to be trusted
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
20,589
Enneagram
827
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
not necissarily... proving that nobody seems to understand sensing :doh:

if we're talking about depth it should be fair to say that introverts would be deeper than extroverts regardless of the S/N divide... Se and Ne are both shallow functions while Ti and Fi (and Si and Ni) are the deeper ones :)
 

KDude

New member
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
8,243
I would say the ISTP is another hero cliche.. but more with a practical type of reason to rise up..and goes about the heroics in a completely methodical, cool way..but usually with a lot of collateral damage. "Someone's gotta do it." Like Bruce Willis in Die Hard (or Daniel Craig's Bond).
 

miss fortune

not to be trusted
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
20,589
Enneagram
827
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
<-- secretly wishes to be as badass as ISTPs get portrayed :ninja:


can pull of the ESTP bitchy woman in boots and a biker jacket rather well though! :holy:
 

KDude

New member
Joined
Jan 26, 2010
Messages
8,243
<-- secretly wishes to be as badass as ISTPs get portrayed :ninja:


can pull of the ESTP bitchy woman in boots and a biker jacket rather well though! :holy:

Yeah, but the ISTP hero has no friends. :cheese:
 

CrystalViolet

lab rat extraordinaire
Joined
Oct 24, 2008
Messages
2,152
MBTI Type
XNFP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
ISTJ - cranks with hearts of gold.
Think hermit who is dumped with a small child.
 

miss fortune

not to be trusted
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
20,589
Enneagram
827
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Yeah, but the ISTP hero has no friends. :cheese:

yeah... even the ESTP bitch stereotype has friends, because it usually turns out that she's a bitch with a heart of gold under several layers of leather and tattoo ink :doh:

still... ISTPs are admirable in their badassedness :yes:

and the ISTJ cranky hermit one is great! :cheese: it reminds me of watching mine babysit a while back!
 

ragashree

Reason vs Being
Joined
Nov 3, 2008
Messages
1,770
MBTI Type
Mine
Enneagram
1w9
Hmmm, there's a lot of truth in these characterisations in general. They certainly hold true for a lot of popular and genre fiction as the stereotypes fit people's explanations very nicely. However, I do feel an obligation at this juncture to reference the lengthy fantasy novel(s) I'm intermittently working on myself. There's almost a full Mbti range of characters overall, but featured among the major ones are:

A truly evil and disturbed INFP (possibly INFJ, but INFP fits better). Main villain of the first part. Controls people by sophisticated, underhand psychological manipulation, and is extremely skilled at playing the victim to gain sympathy when her plans are thwarted.

A good ENTJ, actually the strongest of the good characters, in the first part at least. Not the most preposessing or easy to sympathise with though, due to a tendency to be blunt and outspoken, and believe people fools.

A good INTJ (high Fi though, she could easily be mistaken for INFP if you weren't paying attention). Utterly comitted to doing right, but has a somewhat idiosyncratic and creative interpretation of how this can be achieved, which makes her actually very effective. Not always the most personable of characters. Like the ENTJ, needs to be better judged through her actions than mode of speaking.

An ESTP tragic hero, who uhesitatingly stands up for what he believes in when no-one else will, a very positive example of the type but doomed to fail due to being too impulsive and not thinkng plans through. The arch-enemy of a very negative (self-indulgent asshole who engages in constant one-upmanship) example of the type.

See? It can be done! Mind you, I did make the heroine an ENFx, but we can't have everything, now can we? :)
 

Tamske

Writing...
Joined
Oct 22, 2009
Messages
1,764
MBTI Type
ENTP
Rule #3: Sensors are always dumber than Intuitives. Intuition sees the world on a deeper level you know (this is not my opinion).

This is true. The problem you are having is in your definition of deeper and how you relate it to better in some way.
See the discussion on "define intuition" thread.
This "deep" or "connected" or whatever view of N isn't always the reality. Intuition can see universal gravity behind the falling apple and the rotating moon; but it can also see Mary in a toast burn. The false connections exceed the true ones, and you need your judging functions together to sift through them unless you want to worship toast burns.

But of course, in fiction you can adapt reality to have all the magical connections you want. And you can adapt the intuition such that it indeed sees the deeper world and not just guesses. That's what I'm talking about.
 

Moiety

New member
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
5,996
MBTI Type
ISFJ
not necissarily... proving that nobody seems to understand sensing :doh:

if we're talking about depth it should be fair to say that introverts would be deeper than extroverts regardless of the S/N divide... Se and Ne are both shallow functions while Ti and Fi (and Si and Ni) are the deeper ones :)

Oh sorry, actually have to edit my post. I didn't mean to say I agreed with the first sentence of the rule. I don't think S are dumber in any way. But I do think Ns tend to look deeper.


And yes Is too.

See the discussion on "define intuition" thread.
This "deep" or "connected" or whatever view of N isn't always the reality. Intuition can see universal gravity behind the falling apple and the rotating moon; but it can also see Mary in a toast burn. The false connections exceed the true ones, and you need your judging functions together to sift through them unless you want to worship toast burns.

But of course, in fiction you can adapt reality to have all the magical connections you want. And you can adapt the intuition such that it indeed sees the deeper world and not just guesses. That's what I'm talking about.

Sure. I didn't mean to imply we see the deeper truth in things. Only that we look deeper. Sometimes when we shouldn't, of course.
 

miss fortune

not to be trusted
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
20,589
Enneagram
827
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
depends on what's being looked at really... whether one is pondering a physical or present thing or whether one is pondering some weird abstract thing :)

I'm going to bet that if we're pondering a glass of wine, that I'll have the deeper insights on it (which is kind of cheating since I used to get paid for that :ninja:)


and let's not forget! the NTPs who get lost in their own labs! :holy: :laugh:

(a friend once had an INTP math professor who got so caught up in a theoretical mathematical principle while walking that he ended up walking all the way across the city... he had to call his wife to drive him home :cheese:)
 

Moiety

New member
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
5,996
MBTI Type
ISFJ
depends on what's being looked at really... whether one is pondering a physical or present thing or whether one is pondering some weird abstract thing :)

I'm going to bet that if we're pondering a glass of wine, that I'll have the deeper insights on it (which is kind of cheating since I used to get paid for that :ninja:)

Again it's all a matter of how you define deeper. I'm not defining "deeper" as in any way "better". It's more about seeing meaning where there is no apparent meaning. Like looking at the red sky and equating that with bloodshed for example.
 

miss fortune

not to be trusted
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
20,589
Enneagram
827
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
ah... you're refering to delusional! :cheese:

red sky at night, sailors delight
 

miss fortune

not to be trusted
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
20,589
Enneagram
827
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
everyone's delusional.... in their own way.... *singing*

:laugh:
 

Tamske

Writing...
Joined
Oct 22, 2009
Messages
1,764
MBTI Type
ENTP
Come on, let's not turn it into another N versus S thread, okay?
In fiction, especially fantasy fiction, the N "deeper" IS better and IS reality... that's the cliché I want to attack here.

The absent-minded NTPs aren't just fiction... :whistling:

There's also the perfect hero ENTJ. His only (adorable) weakness is that he's too outspoken.
 
Top