INTJ "Intelligent" Myth

[Kasper]

If you find poor memory is affecting other areas of your life I suggest you see a doctor, it could be an indication of something more serious *worry*

I would prefer it if this didn't turn into talk about what was split out however, as it would mean more splitting would be required.

 

[Zarathustra]

OK, maybe I called him a retard...

But if I did, he deserved it.

 

[Zarathustra]

Is there a place where I could see the deleted posts?

 

[uumlau]

FWIW, I'm quite flattered to be cited as a definitive source.

The idea that selfishness is relative to one's perspective seems central to uumlau's point. He's saying that neither Fi nor Ti is truly objectively selfish on its own, just that Fi seems selfish to Ti and vice versa.

How does this diverge from his conclusion?

It doesn't translate well into "selfishness is relative." As the later philosophical discussion points out, perception is relative, and that which it perceives is affected by point of view.

To be more specific, there is real selfishness that might be expressed in an Fi or Ti way. One behaves maturely or not. Then there is a the Ti/Fi crosstalk that can create a mutual perception of selfishness (with Ti or Fi) or bullying (Te or Fe). The trick is to distinguish this version of bad behavior with the real version.

My approach is to always give the other person the benefit of the doubt. If the other person is truly selfish and immature, the preponderance of evidence will demonstrate it, without my having to throw accusations around.

It seems to me that, since Fe values accommodating the feelings of others by altering its own, someone with "plenty of Fe" should be able to understand quite easily how Fi might be perceived as selfish (even if such a perception is ultimately erroneous or incomplete.)

But she didn't say, "While I value Fi more highly than Fe, I can see why people who emphasize Fe more might come to view Fi as selfish."

She just asked how on earth anyone could possibly see Fi as selfish. I would think someone with a good understanding of Fe would be able to understand how this position comes about, even if she doesn't agree with it.

She was making a more general point, emphasizing real selfishness, believing that this would remind you that not all selfishness is a matter of one's perception.

Because I disagree that his point was that selfishness is relative to one's perspective.

Selfishness is selfishness; perceived selfishness is perceived selfishness.

His point is that the perception of selfishness is often a problem due to differing type's functions conflicting with one another.

I think uumlau concludes that people on this forum are constantly calling other types' behavior selfish, when, in fact, they are merely having a conflict due to differing type functions, and that using the term "selfishness" in this case is a misnomer and problematic.

That, ultimately, true selfishness is caused by immaturity, not type.

That is why it's important to use quotes around the term (when you're talking about the kind of "selfishness" that is being perceived not due to immaturity, but due to type difference.

And that's why you used them in the first place.

Z's interpretation of my words is correct.

 

[Night]

Is there a place where I could see the deleted posts?

Try the email I sent you. That should be evidence enough, Zara.

 

[Zarathustra]

Well, of those four messages you sent me, in not one of them did I call him retarded.

I did, however, call his perspective retarded.

 

[INTP]

Fe, which I have plenty of because I am an Feeler, through and through, is pleasant when it's supporting a good cause, and deleterious when it is used to accomodate, allow, encourage, and or promote bad things for the sake of "peace".

To appease others in order to avoid conflict, or confrontation of the truth "behind" the current feelings/scene is the easy way out.

It temporarily works, but ultimately perpetuates the underlying problem.

i didnt read all the posts but.. in my opinion Fi might seem selfish to others because F is a judging function and the judgment comes from inside. For example Fi makes judgment that you should not act in certain way because you dont feel like it or you do something because you feel like doing so. Fe makes the feeling judgment from outside world.

When Fi extroverts feelings it extroverts them based on how s/he feels inside and it might look selfish to others(this should not be confused with Fe, even tho the focus of feeling is extroverted, since the feeling comes from inside out). Fe introverts feelings based on how s/he feels from outside.

Personally i dont think that Fi is selfish by function, but it tends to get more easily selfish in unwanted situation than Fe. I dont think that there is anything wrong with that because you should do things on how you feel about them, no matter if the feeling comes from inside or outside world.

 

[Zarathustra]

Ok, well that pretty much settles it...

I maintain that he deserved it.

For Christ's sake, his avatar is a bunch of Nazis.

 

[Ginkgo]

Ok, well that pretty much settles it...

I maintain that he deserved it.

For Christ's sake, his avatar is a bunch of Nazis.

No offense buddy, but Karma can be a double edged sword.

 

[Zarathustra]

No offense buddy, but Karma can be a double edged sword.

I wouldn't go back and do it any other way.

 

[onemoretime]

It's threads like these that confirm my epiphany from yesterday - Victor really is the smartest poster on this board.

 

[Night]

It's threads like these that confirm my epiphany from yesterday - Victor really is the smartest poster on this board.

Sometimes opacity makes the best defense.

 

[onemoretime]

Sometimes opacity makes the best defense.

Not just a defense - his is the only consistent viewpoint that isn't irrevocably caught up in the greatness of his own ego.

 

[Moiety]

Not just a defense - his is the only consistent viewpoint that isn't irrevocably caught up in the greatness of his own ego.

I resent that comment.

 

[Zarathustra]

Not just a defense - his is the only consistent viewpoint that isn't irrevocably caught up in the greatness of his own ego.

Onemoretime:

You would have had to have been there for the discussion.

Trust me.

 

[Zarathustra]

He is a very unhealthy INTJ desperately in need of a spanking.

 

[yenom]

Sim-

The only NT you have a right to speak for, is yourself.
When will your NT generalizations end? Knock it off.

HAHAHAHAHA+

Someone whose ni.

Jaguar, you are.

Anyone can see through it.

 

[Ginkgo]

HAHAHAHAHA+

Someone whose ni is near retarded level speaks at a condenscendingly and telling someone to be more NT.
Jaguar, you are a ESTJ, you are just faking around to be an NT.
Anyone can see through it.

I don't know what's more antagonizing - your butchered English or your feeble attempts to provoke people. Are you intoxicated?

 

[digesthisickness]

wtf? i've been having what i thought was a very coherent conversation on my wall with cloud.

then i see this. it's like there are two clouds.

 

[Valiant]

Let them fight, this is probably not just about this thread.
Some people irk each other a lot and things get infected over time.
Then it sort of explodes. Happens to anyone who isn't a complete voluntary underdog.
And even those fight and squabble about scraps at times.