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Mr Holmes. INTP+?

Xander

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As mentioned in the thread regarding House's type it came up about Sherlock Holmes. Now, as I'm sure most of you know, Holmes has been typed previously by many as an INTP but there are some facets of that persona which just don't seem to match up with the INTP personality. Now I'm wondering if others see the same thing.

Firstly Holmes is VERY observant. Now for an INTP to notice that you've cut your hair firstly he has to have nothing else dominating his thinking. Considering that Holmes ALWAYS had other things running through his mind I am amazed that he even noticed that people wore clothes never mind who made them and the specks of railway soot on the left cuff.

Secondly there is the whole disguise stuff and going off to get information from people. I'd expect an INTP to read all about a person but go and meet them? Why? You have all the pertinent facts on this sheet of paper and can now construct the meeting with absolute clarity and hence don't need to bother.

Thirdly as far as I am aware the thinking expressed by Mr Holmes when drawing his conclusions is closer to that of an INTJ or an ISTP than an INTP in my estimation.

What do you think?
Is Holmes an INTP or a mish mash of multiple personas to create a super detective?
 

Mycroft

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Holmes is the ISTP paragon. INTPs live for the pursuit of higher truth. Holmes astonished Watson by admitting that he had no knowledge of or interest in the heliocentric model of the universe; he felt is was a waste of "space" in the "attic" of his mind as it had no use in or bearing on his "craft".

Holmes went out of his way to avoid humoring hunches. He would collect the data, retreat to construct an internal model, then head out once more to fill in the gaps. This, in addition to his lifestyle, rules out INTJ.

His famous quote about ruling out the impossible until whatever is left is Ti in action.
 

Xander

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Holmes is the ISTP paragon. INTPs live for the pursuit of higher truth. Holmes astonished Watson by admitting that he had no knowledge of or interest in the heliocentric model of the universe; he felt is was a waste of "space" in the "attic" of his mind as it had no use in or bearing on his "craft".

Holmes went out of his way to avoid humoring hunches. He would collect the data, retreat to construct an internal model, then head out once more to fill in the gaps. This, in addition to his lifestyle, rules out INTJ.

His famous quote about ruling out the impossible until whatever is left is Ti in action.
I'm not so sure. He had the NT flexibility of thinking but combined with the ST focus on one thing and the STJ depth of knowledge. I think the only thing Holmes lacked was E and F. Aside from that he appears to run the whole gamut at one time or another. I guess that by itself is NTP..
 

Night

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Holmes is the ISTP paragon. INTPs live for the pursuit of higher truth. Holmes astonished Watson by admitting that he had no knowledge of or interest in the heliocentric model of the universe; he felt is was a waste of "space" in the "attic" of his mind as it had no use in or bearing on his "craft".

Holmes went out of his way to avoid humoring hunches. He would collect the data, retreat to construct an internal model, then head out once more to fill in the gaps. This, in addition to his lifestyle, rules out INTJ.

His famous quote about ruling out the impossible until whatever is left is Ti in action.

Agreed.

I think his logical deconstruction (from observable detail) was sharpened to such an extent that its physical execution appears strikingly similar to the INTJ's Ni (though aided considerably by empirical footholds).

I think the key differences (between the comparative intuition of the ISTP and INTJ) are the gravitational forces that give rise to positive thought. Abstraction seems the fancy of the INTJ, whereas factual representation provides the strongest evidence for the ISTP.
 

Xander

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I think I see where this is going...

Is an ENTJ who's job it is to council people an ENFJ?

Of course not though he may at point operate just like an ENFJ (well in most ways) to succeed at those goals.

Holmes could well be an INTP and still work the way he does as he's in an arena which requires chains of evidence and thinking. The usual hotch potch INTP stuff wouldn't but it. NT's can do this.
 

Night

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I think I see where this is going...

Is an ENTJ who's job it is to council people an ENFJ?

Of course not though he may at point operate just like an ENFJ (well in most ways) to succeed at those goals.

Holmes could well be an INTP and still work the way he does as he's in an arena which requires chains of evidence and thinking. The usual hotch potch INTP stuff wouldn't but it. NT's can do this.

I think his true genius is his capacity to move between intellectual ideals to arrive at an approach that equally balances vision with practice.

Certainly one of my favorite literary characters.
 

MacGuffin

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I've never thought Holmes was INTP.

What about ISTJ?
 

INTJMom

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I have read very many Sherlock Holmes stories, yet not recently enough to feel like an expert about him. It was 25 years ago. I really wonder how many of you really know him that well either. Are you thinking of the books or the movies? Movies should be considered "commentaries" whereas the books are the real authority.

I definitely believe Holmes is a Sensor. The way he so naturally thoroughly picks up little smidgens of detail that others miss is unmistakably S, and he's good at "what's wrong with this picture" kind of thinking. Ns are not that way.

Here's another opinion I found online:
"Sherlock Holmes (ISTP). Content to live a solitary life or to socialize with a single roomate, Holmes is galvanized into action by problems that challenge his mind (I). Acutely aware of minor details in his environment, the detective repeatedly cautions that one must not theorize before having facts, and he solves puzzles by refining tried-and-true methods (S). His primary motivation, besides entertaining his brain with intricate puzzles, is to achieve justice (T). His rooms are a disorganized disaster area, and he fills his days with a variety of interests -- scientific experiments, playing the violin, taking drugs -- for as long as they are interesting (P)."
What 'Type' Is Your Character?


I think it's possible that Holmes is an INTP secondarily.

He is a fictional character, and not only that but somewhat "superhuman". We could expect that a superhero would have the characteristics of more than one type.

In conclusion, I think Holmes is an ISTP/INTP.
 

Night

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I have read very many Sherlock Holmes stories, yet not recently enough to feel like an expert about him. It was 25 years ago. I really wonder how many of you really know him that well either. Are you thinking of the books or the movies? Movies should be considered "commentaries" whereas the books are the real authority.

I definitely believe Holmes is a Sensor. The way he so naturally thoroughly picks up little smidgens of detail that others miss is unmistakably S, and he's good at "what's wrong with this picture" kind of thinking. Ns are not that way.

I think it's possible that Holmes is an INTP secondarily.

He is a fictional character, and not only that but somewhat "superhuman". We could expect that a superhero would have the characteristics of more than one type.

In conclusion, I think Holmes is an ISTP/INTP.

Well, my expertise is fairly limited, but I have taken some grad courses that centrally involved the dynamics between Holmes/Watson (among others) as indicative of greater societal unrest between class, criminal justice, sexuality...etc.

Certainly, as a literary trope, he probably won't fit the molding for what constitues and/or divides one MBTI profile from another.

His defiance is what makes him dynamic.
 

wildcat

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I'm not so sure. He had the NT flexibility of thinking but combined with the ST focus on one thing and the STJ depth of knowledge. I think the only thing Holmes lacked was E and F. Aside from that he appears to run the whole gamut at one time or another. I guess that by itself is NTP..
Ha ha. STJ depth of knowledge.

What depth?
 

Xander

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Ha ha. STJ depth of knowledge.

What depth?
Not that kind of depth. My my someone's feeling catty today ;)

ISTJ = repository of information.
Holmes hold a lot of facts and figures in his head. Now whilst an INTP in their main area of interest is an expert I've yet to meet one who had such complete knowledge of the minutia of their subject and certainly not when the subject was so broad as Holmes' was. Also his reference to information is specific and not brushed over at all which is more S than N.

I was going to put an argument down for why Holmes should be an intuitive person and not a sensor but I find that when I look to Holmes' style and his fascinations it does tend to come over all S. I guess that would make Watson an ENFJ.... a theory told to me long ago that Holmes and Watson were a successful duo because they were opposites.

Oh hang on a minute.

Holmes is an intuitive person. When he looks at evidence he does not see it's qualities as an object or a specific instance, he sees it as what it means in reference to this case. Holmes is always in context and therefore intuitive. If he took pieces of information and considered them outside of the chain of evidence until it was proven that they should be included then he would be a sensor.... I think.

Anyhow reading Holmes is like stepping into my own mind a lot of the time. Ergo I consider him an INTP despite the ISTJ tendancies.

I don't see the whole ISTP though. I can see it from a clinical function/ process type of view but not as a holistic type.
 

Mycroft

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Holmes is an intuitive person. When he looks at evidence he does not see it's qualities as an object or a specific instance, he sees it as what it means in reference to this case. Holmes is always in context and therefore intuitive. If he took pieces of information and considered them outside of the chain of evidence until it was proven that they should be included then he would be a sensor.... I think.

Holmes made it a point not to begin constructing a scenario until he had been to the crime scene(s) and taken in all of the available evidence firsthand.
 

Xander

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Holmes made it a point not to begin constructing a scenario until he had been to the crime scene(s) and taken in all of the available evidence firsthand.
I learned quickly that what Holmes says and what he does are not one and the same. He claims deduction and yet uses induction heavily, he claims certainty and yet calculates on probability. It's a superhuman thing. There's no way he can be certain about half of the stuff he claims to be and yet he is certain and what's more he's right. That's because he's a superhuman.

For example the observation thing he does is very presumptuous. How someone can not only tell one type of soot from another but also insist that they picked it up in one specific circumstance is pure fantasy. If Holmes was an ISTP then such things would be rejected as fantasy, if he was an ISTJ then I'd guess he wouldn't notice anyway, if he were an INTJ then there'd be a reason as to why he was certain and his lifestyle would be very different and if he was an INTP then I'd wager he'd not be so certain. In conclusion the character is pure fiction but also I'd maintain that his lifestyle is that of an INTP as is his manner.
 

INTJMom

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I agree.
Holmes is the IDEAL super crime fighting detective and therefore cannot be compared to us mere mortals.

But I also say he is primarily S not primarily N.
His ability to observe is too perfect to not be natural - i.e. not learned.

but then again...
 

Xander

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I agree.
Holmes is the IDEAL super crime fighting detective and therefore cannot be compared to us mere mortals.

But I also say he is primarily S not primarily N.
His ability to observe is too perfect to not be natural - i.e. not learned.

but then again...
Do you see what I mean?
Even though his observation skills were beyond reproach his observations were always in context and rarely just about the thing. Ie he's not really observing the specifics for anything other than what they mean to the big picture.
 

wildcat

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Not that kind of depth. My my someone's feeling catty today ;)

ISTJ = repository of information.
Holmes hold a lot of facts and figures in his head. Now whilst an INTP in their main area of interest is an expert I've yet to meet one who had such complete knowledge of the minutia of their subject and certainly not when the subject was so broad as Holmes' was. Also his reference to information is specific and not brushed over at all which is more S than N.

I was going to put an argument down for why Holmes should be an intuitive person and not a sensor but I find that when I look to Holmes' style and his fascinations it does tend to come over all S. I guess that would make Watson an ENFJ.... a theory told to me long ago that Holmes and Watson were a successful duo because they were opposites.

Oh hang on a minute.

Holmes is an intuitive person. When he looks at evidence he does not see it's qualities as an object or a specific instance, he sees it as what it means in reference to this case. Holmes is always in context and therefore intuitive. If he took pieces of information and considered them outside of the chain of evidence until it was proven that they should be included then he would be a sensor.... I think.

Anyhow reading Holmes is like stepping into my own mind a lot of the time. Ergo I consider him an INTP despite the ISTJ tendancies.

I don't see the whole ISTP though. I can see it from a clinical function/ process type of view but not as a holistic type.
A book repository.. that's in Dallas.

Any way.. you are correct, as always.

A majority of my history teachers were ISTJs. I went one day to the uni library to see what books they had borrowed (= outside of the curriculum) when they had been students.
Nothing.

They had read only the books their professors had told them to read.
They had the minutiae all right.. of the books, not of the subject of the books.

There is a huge difference there. I never read the books. Of course they were boring, because they were prescribed by the ISTJ professors. Academia. Yawn.

I knew an advanced ISTJ history student. He studied cabinet lists! He knew more than the professor I am sure.

Holmes was not irrelevant.. and that is the point. He was a rational. An INTP as you say. He was not an active man.

He was a catcher.
 

Xander

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A book repository.. that's in Dallas.

Any way.. you are correct, as always.

A majority of my history teachers were ISTJs. I went one day to the uni library to see what books they had borrowed (= outside of the curriculum) when they had been students.
Nothing.

They had read only the books their professors had told them to read.
They had the minutiae all right.. of the books, not of the subject of the books.

There is a huge difference there. I never read the books. Of course they were boring, because they were prescribed by the ISTJ professors. Academia. Yawn.

I knew an advanced ISTJ history student. He studied cabinet lists! He knew more than the professor I am sure.

Holmes was not irrelevant.. and that is the point. He was a rational. An INTP as you say. He was not an active man.

He was a catcher.
Precisely. Holmes not only had read all those esoteric papers but understood them as a whole and could intersperse the various fields into his work. That would be N.

Though you must admit the sheer breadth and depth of his knowledge is quite beyond what would be expected as possible from most INTPs. Also to only have one interest and structure everything around it, very not P.
 

INTJMom

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A book repository.. that's in Dallas.

Any way.. you are correct, as always.

A majority of my history teachers were ISTJs. I went one day to the uni library to see what books they had borrowed (= outside of the curriculum) when they had been students.
Nothing.

They had read only the books their professors had told them to read.
They had the minutiae all right.. of the books, not of the subject of the books.

There is a huge difference there. I never read the books. Of course they were boring, because they were prescribed by the ISTJ professors. Academia. Yawn.

I knew an advanced ISTJ history student. He studied cabinet lists! He knew more than the professor I am sure.

Holmes was not irrelevant.. and that is the point. He was a rational. An INTP as you say. He was not an active man.

He was a catcher.
My ISTJ mother reads Encyclopedias recreationally, meaning not because she has to, but because she loves it.
 

wildcat

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My ISTJ mother reads Encyclopedias recreationally, meaning not because she has to, but because she loves it.
Yes.
I can believe it. The ISTJs love encyclopedias.

You can read them in or out of context.
 

The Ü™

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In the movie Young Sherlock Holmes, Holmes was definitely portrayed more as an INTJ.
 
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