se7en

[Requeim]

i don't think john doe is an INFP, can't really say why

INxJ sounds pretty good though

 

[jenocyde]

I agree. No offense to INFPs but you all have this certain je ne sais quoi...

 

[cascadeco]

you say "Down the path", but what it really comes down to is he really had tell tale XXFJ signs, and he definitely seemed introverted, which led me to that IXFJ...

Psychoticism is def a variable that can fuck up type perception, but here's the thing Jenn et al : I'm not necessarily convinced he, John Doe/kevin spacey, WAS psychotic. Psychoticism is doing violent acts w/o regard to righteousness; he did those things BECAUSE of righteousness. The actions he commited may have legitimately been caused by normalized human reasoning, in this case extreme Fe facilitated by I- lonliness as Jenn mentioned.

basically, i think he's typable, but perhaps only because the complexity of his character was never known and we may as well presume that it can be known. He kept no logs, just righteous commentary, maybe thats a clue to his type:

What sick ridiculous puppets we are / and what gross little stage we dance on / What fun we have dancing and fucking / Not a care in the world / Not knowing that we are nothing / We are not what was intended. ... TELL me that's not hyperactive Fe?? honestly? Lol

also, my basis for IXFJ is supported by much imagery in the film: JOHN DOE (FROM SEVEN) in the Serial Killer Calendar

(Haven't read any other responses beyond this one)

Funny, I tend to agree, which I why I said he chose his path - meaning he chose his actions, very carefully, and chose to bring/'highlight' his grand vision of things that were amiss in the world, etc. While viewing the movie I never deemed him entirely psychotic - in fact, he seemed rather sane, as far as awareness, etc of everything he was doing - but obviously he chose to bring about very dark, horrible things to people. So by THAT definition, he was psychotic. But I'd argue it was more a path of choice than of chemical imbalance, whatever. (I recognize I might be openingi up a big can of worms w/ this though! ha.)

 

[jenocyde]

You should read the other responses, I'd like to hear your opinion (your posts are always so interesting and thorough). My take is that Te made him methodical, while Fi made this a personal quest - hence INFP.

 

[cascadeco]

thanks Jenocyde. A few more thoughts -

What sick ridiculous puppets we are / and what gross little stage we dance on / What fun we have dancing and fucking / Not a care in the world / Not knowing that we are nothing / We are not what was intended. ... TELL me that's not hyperactive Fe?? honestly? Lol

To me, this is NiFeTi. I'll be honest, I've had these thoughts (or along similar lines) when I've been more pessimistic.

John Doe was uber-focused on culture as a whole, and how culture/society had fallen into such trivialities, pettiness, and superficialities. This is something that is more Fe driven - looking, and caring, and being intensely bothered, about society as a whole. NiFe combined, to me, would lead that persons' thoughts more towards what the greater ramifications are of how society is now, and where it will lead in the future if things continue in this way - specifically, on a human interest/human happiness/psychological/ethical level (hence the stereotype of NFJ's being more 'prophet-like', etc). And then when you throw in the Ti -- NiFeTi would equate to breaking down peoples' actions, societies actions, into all of its logical inconsistencies - hence becoming more pessimistic about society, and humanity, as a whole.

In my opinion.

No, he produced said shock as a marketing campaign, he admiited that.... it's just the way he's brandishing his form of righteousness - an INFP's righteousness would be more targetted and deliberate. John Doe got righteous on a bunch of disgusting strangers, but strangers nonetheless - pure Fe rage. I believe INFP's would only murder people they knew personally and KNEW, first hand, that they were evil. That's the personality of Fi.

That's a good point. But since he did track these people for years and became so upset when speaking about them personally, I thought it could be Fi gone wrong. He really believed them to be monsters. I would think Fe would be less personal, to be honest. And the planning and execution of each murder... my goodness, no amount of Fe could ever match that Te. But I have no idea how crazy works.

Yes, I agree planning and execution is more of a Te act.

But I also think it's important to note (and this is where I tend to disagree with mbti theory, or at least how people try to apply it to real-life people) that people are able to utilize - sometimes quite well - functions they're not 'supposed' to be able to utilize according to mbti theory. Many functions can be quite situational, and through life experience people learn to use certain functions in certain arenas.

I don't know if INTJ would be a possibility for John Doe or not -- don't know if INTJ's would get so indignant about society -- although, Ayn Rand did, so.......

 

[jenocyde]

I agree that we all have access to all the functions, but the fact that he planned and executed this out over years and never got caught until he wanted to... I don't know, I guess I just don't think my Te could be that precise. But you're right, anything is possible.

 

[simulatedworld]

^ Correct.

My personal theory on this is that the four other functions are basically learned skills that are largely unaffected by MBTI type. You either learn them or you don't; I haven't noticed any significant correlations with type.

So, if you're especially good at your dominant and auxiliary, and especially bad at your tertiary and inferior, the other four could be termed "middle functions." That's how I usually refer to them--since they are not our natural way of expressing that function, we must learn how to use them in terms of our regular functions, and this can be developed with time.

But most people I know seem to have a wide variety of skill levels in the middle functions; they seem largely unaffected by natural aptitude.

I know one INTP with terrific Se, but he was raised by Se dominant parents who taught him to think that way. He still doesn't do it as well as his natural Ti/Ne, but it's there.

I myself have terrible Se because I never spend any time working on it. I probably could if I wanted to, but I don't care.

As for Fi, mine is pretty strong because I was raised by extraordinarily ethically conscious parents--I worry about what I might be like morally if I hadn't been. Te is something I'm still working on--it's often very difficult for me to self-motivate and move toward measurable goals without someone pushing me, but I'm slowly learning.

And Ni, well--I feel like I had pretty much zero development of Ni until I started studying typology, which is itself an Ni concept. Since discovering it, though, I've been able to learn SO much about the Ni+Te approach from watching my strongly INTJ father and younger brother. Both are really impressive in many ways, and I've made leaps and bounds in Ni in recent months, and might say that it's moved up to my 4th best function (had previously deemed it 5th.)

I do, however, have natural relative deficiencies in Fe and Si, probably because they're the opposites of my strong functions. Fe is a little better and has been coming along in the last few years, but Si is still pretty awful.

Of course, some people have developed middle functions to be even better than the auxiliary, and some are underdeveloped to being worse than the tertiary (as in the case of my Se, which I believe is worse than my Fe at this point.) I imagine it may be possible for a middle function to be developed beyond even the dominant, or underdeveloped beyond the inferior. The idea that functions are stuck in particular orders just really doesn't make sense.

So my current function order is something like: Ne Ti Fi Ni Te Fe Se Si

 

[jenocyde]

Yeah Sim, I'm like that too. However, I somehow equate ethics with Fe but only because I have a highly developed sense of ethics, and I have a shitty Fi while my Fe is getting bigger every day. My Se and Te are pretty developed but they don't happen naturally. I have to consciously evoke them before I use them, but when they're on the surface, I can be immersed in them. Si is dead to me. I'm still not quite sure what Ni is but I always test high in it. *shrug*

 

[simulatedworld]

I think I finally understand Ne vs. Ni.

Basically, Ne seeks to change or reinvent the external object, idea, theory, person, etc.

Ni seeks to change or reinvent your personal perceptions of it--Ni questions the process of perception itself and the possible flaws therein. It does not actually interact directly with the external idea or object. Ni is far more personal and cannot easily be explained or expressed to others the way Ne can. (Nor does it even want external validation the way Ne usually does.)

Ne - extraverted iNtuiting
Interpreting situations and relationships; picking up meanings and interconnections; being drawn to change “what is” for “what could possibly be”; noticing what is not said and threads of meaning emerging across multiple contexts. Ne is the opposite of Si--it always seeks to go outside the box, make up something different or explore the unknown, even when that is not necessarily useful. To Ne, "We've done it this way before" is a great reason NOT to do it that way.

Ni - introverted iNtuiting
Foreseeing implications and likely effects without external data; realizing “what will be”; conceptualizing new ways of seeing things; envisioning transformations; getting an image of profound meaning or far-reaching symbols. Ni questions the fundamental assumptions upon which systems are based and seeks to consider all possible viewpoints and condense them into one unifying perspective. It finds the hidden assumptions present in systems so as to expand its own personal view of reality.

 

[nozflubber]

that's all good and all, but what relevance is that to our adequate perception of john doe in se7en?


omg i'm so J, trying to keep this shit on target!

 

[simulatedworld]

It was an explanation for Jeno. (That is your real first name, isn't it, Jeno?)

For the record, I agree with INFJ for John Doe.

Morgan Freeman's character is INFP, and Brad Pitt's is ISFP (maybe ISTP.)

 

[Orangey]

Moved some posts here. Y'all shut up now.

 

[Totenkindly]

I think I finally understand Ne vs. Ni.

Basically, Ne seeks to change or reinvent the external object, idea, theory, person, etc.

Ni seeks to change or reinvent your personal perceptions of it--Ni questions the process of perception itself and the possible flaws therein. It does not actually interact directly with the external idea or object. Ni is far more personal and cannot easily be explained or expressed to others the way Ne can. (Nor does it even want external validation the way Ne usually does.)

Nice way to re-state it.

I agree with the phrase "re-invent" from the Introvert's POV. (The extrovert is far more apt to try to "change" something via Ne, that's ENxP in a nutshell; INxP is going to re-invent or re-cast the inherent definition of the object, changing its essence and context in the Ji scheme of things.)