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Poker After Dark

Domino

ENFJ In Chains
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Sis and I watch it sometimes if we're up really late and can't sleep. I know someone had mentioned Phil Hellmuth ages ago, thinking he was an ENTJ, and I'd disagreed then, but now I totally get it.

Kenny Tran - ISFP?

Antonio Esfandiari - ENTP (yeah, gotta a little crush going on there...)

Phil Laak - ESTP (appears to be the victim of his own genius)

Phil Hellmuth - ENTJ

Tom Dwan - xNTJ (and I suspect Asperger's...)

Bob Safai - ISTJ

Doyle - ISTJ
 

Jeffster

veteran attention whore
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Poker after dark? I hardly knew 'er! :blush:
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
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Finally!
Looks like pinky is growing up - typologically speaking.

Everyone wants to give him a P cause of that whole poker brat thing (since when is an Te type immature right?) but it's pretty fucking clear - if you really watch the way he plays and the times where he insults people.
 

Nocapszy

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Laak, also I might say F but I don't know I haven't seen him much.
 

Domino

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Well, I simply couldn't believe it right away about Hellmuth, but the more I stared at him, the more he looked like a guy I know who is an archetypal ENTJ. I think what may have been throwing me off initially was the high levels of talkativeness and his weird humor.

Then again, he's a bad loser and extremely competitive. (I say this liking ENTJs...)

Laak is such a twitchy guy. I think the physical veiling of his person makes him feel as an Se primary more cloaked from scrutiny. Plus, loads of bonhomie. Fe at work?
 

kelric

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Doyle - ISTJ

I'm with you on most of the ones (that I know of) except for Doyle. I've read a little bit about some of his exploits when he was a younger guy, and although I'm pretty lousy at type-analysis-on-others, he strikes me as more of a very "established elder-statesman" ISTP.

If I remember right, this is a guy who basically quit his teaching job (I think it was teaching...) to jump in a car with his buddy and drive around Texas seeking out illicit card games... the kind where somebody pulling a gun and taking your money or having to flee the police was not only possible, but somewhat likely.

He's a pretty fascinating guy - incredibly smart, and probably has ten lifetimes' worth of stories.
 

Domino

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Interesting historical spin there!
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
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Well, I simply couldn't believe it right away about Hellmuth, but the more I stared at him, the more he looked like a guy I know who is an archetypal ENTJ. I think what may have been throwing me off initially was the high levels of talkativeness and his weird humor.

Then again, he's a bad loser and extremely competitive.
Well I don't doubt that he was highly competent in most of what he did as a child, actually probably choosing things he was sure he could win with, and improving on those.
Without knowing his life I'd speculate he was raised by a single cynical mom who fostered his competitiveness and never scolded his poor sportsmanship probably thinking just the same as he does now -- that he's better than everyone else.
Just a guess, but the 'bratty' nature is probably derived therein.

You have to remember that prestige is very often the appellate of Te.
Reputation matters most of all. A lot of Te-s balance this, but Hellmuth is a bit more determined, and subsequently frustrated when his determination alone doesn't win it for him, as it likely did when he was young.
Laak is such a twitchy guy. I think the physical veiling of his person makes him feel as an Se primary more cloaked from scrutiny.
Indeed. Overcompensating for the, surely, absurd number of mistakes made simply by concrete outspoken habits [even perhaps, not unbelievably, in some cases swearing at the cards by name] and other exaggerated impulse responses. The mouth does all that shit too, but he's got a better acumen at his aid.
Plus, loads of bonhomie. Fe at work?
Indubitably. He's geniunely rooting for the other guys.

If you've ever seen the movie Rounders, I compared him a bit to Worm, only without (simply because I don't know him well enough, but the contrary wouldn't surprise me) the compulsive cheating and inadvertently accruing malevolence.

Worm, though was an intuitive. The willingness and determination of secondary Ti is still there, and even more outstanding than their dominant (or ironically submissive) leading function.

Whatever. I'll watch some more of that guy and get a closer read but I think ESTP is right.

Also what you said about him being the victim of his own genius earlier:
Undeniable. Apparently, seeing for sure that he read them right (and he did almost every time at the table I saw him playing) is worth the enormous piles of chips.

He may even prefer knowing that he was right to winning.
Ti never was any good at following prescribed instructions. Maybe he joins that tournament with a different priority than the one mentioned explicitly by the rules and object of the game.
 

Domino

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I heard the Hellmuth had some sort of traumatic childhood. He was very nerdy and I guess got picked on pretty badly. He said he was bad at math and that it messed up his self-esteem. We might ask - did it mess with his self-esteem because it was the one thing he couldn't subjugate?

Laak has to be riddled with ADD. Bless him.
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
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Hey slow down now.
I only guessed that he had strong control of his faculties.
I mean if we can confirm that then I'd wonder the same thing, but let's don't get ahead of ourselves.
 

simulatedworld

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Sis and I watch it sometimes if we're up really late and can't sleep. I know someone had mentioned Phil Hellmuth ages ago, thinking he was an ENTJ, and I'd disagreed then, but now I totally get it.

Kenny Tran - ISFP?

Antonio Esfandiari - ENTP (yeah, gotta a little crush going on there...)

Phil Laak - ESTP (appears to be the victim of his own genius)

Phil Hellmuth - ENTJ

Tom Dwan - xNTJ (and I suspect Asperger's...)

Bob Safai - ISTJ

Doyle - ISTJ


Haha yeah Hellmuth is a poster boy for ENTJ. He's so particular in the way he insists that his theoretical conception of poker be followed in the play of others, and he has no problem commanding and berating them for not falling in line. It's hysterical.

ISFP sounds good for Tran, but he doesn't talk much so it's hard to say.

Antonio Esfandiari is totally ENTP, good read.

ISTJ sounds fair enough for Bob Safai, and INTJ is definitely right for Dwan. That kid is terrifying; did you catch his 5x pot 130k bluff against Safai because he put him on marginal top pair on the river? Sick. His explanation for the play in the director's cut was really interesting as well.

Phil Laak is definitely ENTP, though. The outthinking yourself thing is a big problem for NPs; look at Daniel Negreanu (ENFP.)

And as for Doyle...he's just like Matusow, total ESTP. His game is based totally on awareness of present-moment personal dynamics, not long term averages of all possible plays. (Listen to Doyle vs. Dwan discussing hands and reads if you want a great example of the S vs. N dichotomy on these perspectives.)

Look at the way Doyle will make plays like cold call a preflop raise with KK and then call down two or three barrels. Deeper chip stacks, as in a cash game, favor N players because the Sensor's "right now" read stands to lose more on the occasions when it's wrong. Doyle's strategy in deep stack cash is deliberately directed at minimizing pot size and taking advantage of overly aggressive players by snapping off 2- and 3-barrels. And he's really good at it.

If you've read his book Super/System, you'll know that he gained prominence in a time when cash games were played with much smaller stacks, and now he doesn't win nearly as much as he used to since the huge rash of extremely mathematical N-type internet players started to take over the scene, and both cash game and tournament stacks got much deeper in most games. "It's like playing against a computer," he says. How telling.

An N player can't hone in on the exact specifics of the current hand as well, and so good S players actually have stronger overall reads...but N players make up for this with a broader contextual understanding of average hand ranges by studying long-term play data. N wonders what the theory says the pieces of information he's given should say about what hands he should have and how often; S cuts this step out of the process and just reads directly into what he *does* have *this* time.

It's extraordinarily interesting to me how both approaches can produce huge success when used correctly.
 

Nocapszy

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It's extraordinarily interesting to me how both approaches can produce huge success when used correctly.

Particularly in that it proves that no such typological distinctions [f]or predictions can be made, thereby making the rest of your post obsolete.

I would have deleted it.
 

Mozzes

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INTJ is definitely right for Dwan. That kid is terrifying; did you catch his 5x pot 130k bluff against Safai because he put him on marginal top pair on the river? Sick. His explanation for the play in the director's cut was really interesting as well.

Dwan is great. He seems to be a little weak in multi-handed pots but I don't think I've seen a better player heads-up. I've seen him play a bunch of heads-up Omaha Hi against Gus Hansen on FTP and Dwan almost always comes out a big winner.

What do you guys think about Scotty Nguyen?
 

Domino

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Haha yeah Hellmuth is a poster boy for ENTJ. He's so particular in the way he insists that his theoretical conception of poker be followed in the play of others, and he has no problem commanding and berating them for not falling in line. It's hysterical.

Did you see them all teasing him about his "trap" method? That was so funny.

ISFP sounds good for Tran, but he doesn't talk much so it's hard to say.

Agreed. I try to decipher people starting in my strong areas - Fe or Ni, and if I think I'm seeing neither, then I can narrow things down rapidly. Tran doesn't speak much, and yet he still manages to be involved, so I figured ISFP. Truly though I'm having some trouble working him out.

Antonio Esfandiari is totally ENTP, good read.

He's adorable. And his interplay with Phil Laak is so bro-mance. lol I love being able to play around with my girlfriends in a similar manner.

ISTJ sounds fair enough for Bob Safai

Did you hear how much money the man has?? Did he not just close on some real estate or something for $80M? I can't even conceive of that much money.

INTJ is definitely right for Dwan. That kid is terrifying; did you catch his 5x pot 130k bluff against Safai because he put him on marginal top pair on the river? Sick. His explanation for the play in the director's cut was really interesting as well.

He's scary! Sis and I cheer for him all the time. It's funny watching him take down Safai piece by piece. And it seemed, like last night, that he was playing almost every hand that he got dealt. It's funny to watch him explain himself - like a super computer with a personality loosely attached. He HAS to be Asperger's.

Phil Laak is definitely ENTP, though. The outthinking yourself thing is a big problem for NPs; look at Daniel Negreanu (ENFP.)

You don't think Phil is operating on Se? Ne and Se can mimic pretty hard at times. What's your argument for Ne over Se with Phil?

And as for Doyle...he's just like Matusow, total ESTP. His game is based totally on awareness of present-moment personal dynamics, not long term averages of all possible plays. (Listen to Doyle vs. Dwan discussing hands and reads if you want a great example of the S vs. N dichotomy on these perspectives.)

Look at the way Doyle will make plays like cold call a preflop raise with KK and then call down two or three barrels. Deeper chip stacks, as in a cash game, favor N players because the Sensor's "right now" read stands to lose more on the occasions when it's wrong. Doyle's strategy in deep stack cash is deliberately directed at minimizing pot size and taking advantage of overly aggressive players by snapping off 2- and 3-barrels. And he's really good at it.

If you've read his book Super/System, you'll know that he gained prominence in a time when cash games were played with much smaller stacks, and now he doesn't win nearly as much as he used to since the huge rash of extremely mathematical N-type internet players started to take over the scene, and both cash game and tournament stacks got much deeper in most games. "It's like playing against a computer," he says. How telling.

An N player can't hone in on the exact specifics of the current hand as well, and so good S players actually have stronger overall reads...but N players make up for this with a broader contextual understanding of average hand ranges by studying long-term play data. N wonders what the theory says the pieces of information he's given should say about what hands he should have and how often; S cuts this step out of the process and just reads directly into what he *does* have *this* time.

It's extraordinarily interesting to me how both approaches can produce huge success when used correctly.

VERY interesting profile of Doyle.
 

Nocapszy

no clinkz 'til brooklyn
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You don't think Phil is operating on Se? Ne and Se can mimic pretty hard at times. What's your argument for Ne over Se with Phil?
Nah. Outthinking yourself has nothing to do with N_P.
It's more a tireless Thinking type's habit if even in accord with any at all.

Intuition will surely 'help' this phenomenon but so also will Sensation.

More importantly, you can clearly see that there's no such thing as abstraction in Laak's dialog and diction.

He's an S.
 

Domino

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Phil sounds like every brilliant theoretical ESTP I've ever met. One of my foremen was that way. He reminded me of Ben Franklin with his hypothesizing and inventiveness. He loved discussing the impossibility of a perpetual motion machine all the while plotting to build one. He was a painfully smart man.

Even with all of Phil's mental ramblings and theories, he still feels grounded to me.
 

Nocapszy

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Which brings up one of the mistakes most important to attend to when reading online literature:

It's an enormous misconception to equate aptitude for theory with Intuitive perception.
I blame Americans' semantics and Axe deodorant for this particular style of idiotry.
 

Domino

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Well, Dwan's pile is around $400K now. The internet kid is on a roll.

Phil Laak = gardening craze... lol
 

soleil

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I agree with everything except:

Phil Laak - My initial thought was ISTP.


 

Halla74

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What is this thing you speak of called "television?"

Surely this is a sick joke. :doh:
 
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