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Marilyn Manson's type

Economica

Dhampyr
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What say you to MM as an INFJ?

On Politically Incorrect (1996) <-- At age 27
On The O'Reilly Factor (2002)
Written statement in Rolling Stone after Columbine

A generation of unhappy teenagers has worshipped him as its messiah, a role he took upon himself with the title Antichrist Superstar in a gesture that practically defines poetic justice. He is a spokesperson for individuality and at the same time preaches his view of the world and his ideals. He admits to being shy and he is often described as surprisingly intelligent, thoughtful and articulate.

Could he be one of the elusive male INFJs?
 
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ptgatsby

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Hmm, funny, my first thought was that he was INFP, before even opening the thread. I'd accept INFJ as well, although the way he writes feels very INFP still... it's not a singular point that gives me that vibe.
 

The Ü™

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I would say you're probably right on INFJ.

Marilyn Manson is also typed as a 4 in the Enneagram, which, incidentally, is called the Individualist and generally corresponds to the Ni type.

An INFP is an Fi dominant, and so would have softer ideals. Aided by Ne, the INFP comes off as dreamy. The INFP is less likely to have a fanatical individualistic streak the way an Ni dominant would, but a more "go-with-the-flow" dreamy nature.

I think he's an Ni dominant, aided by Fe, because he is more people oriented, so INFJ for me, as well. Economica, are you sure we can't be friends? :hi:
 

Economica

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Economica, are you sure we can't be friends? :hi:

Uberfuhrer, I have nothing against you, only your trolling behavior. Make thoughtful contributions instead and I will conversely express my appreciation. :yes:

You don't seem to have very much RL typing experience and so my typing threads probably aren't the right place to start, however, getting honestly, relevantly and substantially personal in your blog would win me over and then some.

(Sorry, me, for getting OT. :D)

Edit:

Hmm, funny, my first thought was that he was INFP, before even opening the thread. I'd accept INFJ as well, although the way he writes feels very INFP still... it's not a singular point that gives me that vibe.

I see him as pronouncedly J, actually. His strength is in single-mindedly championing his cause, usually relying on pre-prepared arguments. He doesn't do well on the spur of the moment and rarely improvises a snappy comeback. Sometimes his humor is misplaced and falls flat and I recognize it as the regurgitation of something clever he's thought of before that just doesn't quite fit in the context. To me all of it spells J rather than P/Ni rather than Ne.

As for the overall INFJ reading, isn't he in fact a poster boy? :)
 
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ptgatsby

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I see him as pronouncedly J, actually. His strength is in single-mindedly championing his cause, usually relying on pre-prepared arguments. He doesn't do well on the spur of the moment and rarely improvises a snappy comeback. Sometimes his humor is misplaced and falls flat and I recognize it as the regurgitation of something clever he's thought of before that just doesn't quite fit in the context. To me all of it spells J rather than P/Ni rather than Ne.

As for the overall INFJ reading, isn't he in fact a poster boy? :)

Ok, you won me over with the lack of social understand and adaptability. :D I didn't look into it much, but my first impression was INFP. His writing still feels very INFP to me, but his behaviour otherwise doesn't... I imagine he probably has either lots of time or editors that change the way I see him writing.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Could he be one of the elusive male INFJs?

The interviews of him i've seen strike me as an STP. I realize the assumptions on this forum are that STs cannot be creative and such, but that is not consistent with the MBTI literature. There is a bizarre manner in which STPs get confused with INFJs when they lead. I think this is because they share all the same functions, but in a different order. INFJs are intensely private. He is a showman, and an incredible business man. He adores shock value - something that INFJs avoid like the plague. He could be the same type as Madonna. These image intense people are strategists in a way that is not compatible with INFJness. INFJs are not image conscious in this way. Few people in pop culture are INFJs - maybe a few method actors and modest, counterculture musicians.

INFJs are very private, nuanced, complex, inward, hidden. Their expression is not overt, shocking, showman style. The reason I am quicker to call DeNiro an INFJ is because he has the capacity to disappear, observe a sea of details and nuance about people, then recreate using intense empathy. I can't swear to either being INFJ, but I'd place a decent sized bet on DeNiro over MM.

As for the overall INFJ reading, isn't he in fact a poster boy? :)
I worked for a male INFJ employer. Not even close.

As an INFJ artist myself i can tell you that shock value and drama is not the dialogue of Ni-Fe, etc. INFJ art is intense understatement and nuance.
 

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His writing still feels very INFP to me, but his behaviour otherwise doesn't... I imagine he probably has either lots of time or editors that change the way I see him writing.

That reminds me... Do we have any active male INFJ members?
 

The Ü™

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The interviews of him i've seen strike me as an STP. I realize the assumptions on this forum are that STs cannot be creative and such, but there is a bizarre manner in which STPs get confused with INFJs when they lead. I think this is because they share all the same functions, but in a different order. INFJs are intensely private. He is a showman, and an incredible business man. He adores shock value - something that INFJs avoid like the plague. He could be the same type as Madonna. These image intense people are strategists in a way that is not compatible with INFJness. INFJs are not image conscious in this way. Few people in pop culture are INFJs - maybe a few method actors and modest, counterculture musicians.

INFJs are very private, nuanced, complex, inward, hidden. Their expression is not overt, shocking, showman style. The reason I am quicker to call DeNiro an INFJ is because he has the capacity to disappear, observe a sea of details and nuance about people, then recreate using intense empathy. I can't swear to either being INFJ, but I'd place a decent sized bet on DeNiro over MM.

Shock value is an N thing. The S would probably be more modest, where the N seeks to be idiosyncratic.

By rule, creativity and sticking out from the crowd is a product of N. There seems to be the illusion that intelligence is linked to N, but as we all know, that's untrue. However, the N, and particularly the NJ, seeks to rebel against the norm.

EDIT: Marilyn Manson is, out of principle, not unlike Martin Luther King, Jr. (an xNFJ, maybe?). Both were rebels and neither were/are particularly modest in their expression. Both were extremely forceful in their views. Both sought to make impact. Their expression was through very different means and for very different reasons, but in essence, they caused the same sort of rebellion.

The difference is the N actively seeks to shake people up. True, the S may shake things up and be creative, but it isn't in their nature to try to be unconventional. The N may not necessarily be creative, but creativity is something the N values, and therefore will try to be creative.

Humans are gregarious creatures. The N is aware of a desire to make an impact in an unusual way -- to think and do outside of the box. The S will make their impact by finding a new way of doing things, but not necessarily looking for it.
 

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The interviews of him i've seen strike me as an STP. I realize the assumptions on this forum are that STs cannot be creative and such, but there is a bizarre manner in which STPs get confused with INFJs when they lead. I think this is because they share all the same functions, but in a different order. INFJs are intensely private. He is a showman, and an incredible business man. He adores shock value - something that INFJs avoid like the plague. He could be the same type as Madonna.

What interviews have you seen? I see nothing in the interviews I link to in the OP that says STP. There is also IMO no way he is an Extrovert (like Madonna).

I don't see artistic shock value and showmanship on stage as foreign to the INFJ. In interviews he is polite and soft-spoken.

What makes you say he is an incredible businessman? He alienated Trent Reznor who produced his best album; that was a pretty dumb move. :thumbdown:

INFJs are very private, nuanced, complex, inward, hidden. Their expression is not overt, shocking, showman style.

I think perhaps you're over-focusing on the shock value and under-focusing on his behavior in interviews and on his general message. He has (had) more to say than, say, Ozzy or Madonna ever had. Did you read the written statement I link to in the OP?

A major theme in his lyrics is authenticity, btw. The word "fake" occurs about as frequently as the other F word. ;)
 

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I think perhaps you're over-focusing on the shock value and under-focusing on his behavior in interviews and on his general message. He has (had) more to say than, say, Ozzy or Madonna ever had.

Yes, if you catch the "real him," he's very soft-spoken and not as brash/blunt like ISTP tends to be. I don't know if I'd use the word "delicate" but he's not the sort to just throw a stone at a glass house in order to see what happen, as IxTP tends to do. Everything seems very much calculated, planned, and purposeful, for some deeper purpose.

A major theme in his lyrics is authenticity, btw. The word "fake" occurs about as frequently as the other F word. ;)

Yes, it's all show -- and not like "Spinal Tap / Ozzy or Kiss" show either. Those bands are much more SP in nature, playing around and not really care who they are offending. I get the impression that Manson is very particular and careful about how and who he offends; he's not goofing around.

The INFJ women actors I've known love to fall into another role. When they have to be themselves, they often seem formalized to some degree -- they impose a structure over their social interaction with others. But when they act, their literally become someone else and do not see that as duplicity but simply as the opportunity to be a different person.

Manson seems very much the same way. His stage show is a very calculated image.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Fwiw: consider this regarding the Ni mind.

I think perhaps you're over-focusing on the shock value and under-focusing on his behavior in interviews and on his general message. He has (had) more to say than, say, Ozzy or Madonna ever had. Did you read the written statement I link to in the OP?

A major theme in his lyrics is authenticity, btw. The word "fake" occurs about as frequently as the other F word. ;)
That could mean a variety of things. 1. he is authentic and resists the idea of fakeness. 2. he is in fact a fake himself and so must make the declaration - protesting too much. 3. he has analyzed that such an approach will sell based on psychological and social dynamics.

I don't focus solely on the interviews because i know all too well how much can be faked in this manner. I can't tell you how many people i've met that acted mousy, but then slapped their kids around hard screaming and yelling, or people who act really confident who have no self-esteem. Very often the facade is the person's exact opposite. Yes, mannerisms and statements in interviews have relevance, but it is only one small piece in the larger puzzle. What I look at more is what their life would require of them and how they interact with those demands. Fwiw, my entire life is surrounded by artists of every personality type and expression. It'd be harder for me to pinpoint various types as they present in medicine or something, but artists are my point of reference.

Frankly, i think an artist that uses the word "fake" too much is more likely a fake than anything.
 

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That could mean a variety of things. 1. he is authentic and resists the idea of fakeness. 2. he is in fact a fake himself and so must make the declaration - protesting too much. 3. he has analyzed that such an approach will sell based on psychological and social dynamics.

Or 4. he values and strives for authenticity but all too often in the past has compromised his ideals in the name of people-pleasing and avoiding conflict. This is the one I subscribe to. :)

I don't focus solely on the interviews because i know all too well how much can be faked in this manner.

IIUC, then you have watched interviews with him and you see where we are coming from with the INFJ-not-ISTP reading but you believe him to be faking it? :huh:
 

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IIUC, then you have watched interviews with him and you see where we are coming from with the INFJ-not-ISTP reading but you believe him to be faking it? :huh:

I've watched interviews of him. They don't strike me as particularly INFJ or not. He strikes me as an expert at image creation and therefore his presentation of self, regardless of its flavor, is to be taken as one element and not the final conclusion. His presentation of self is based on his intention as is true of anyone to some degree.

Just a question: has anyone here been required to perform and create and maintain an image? It looks different from the inside i assure you. The performing arts are a cut-throat business filled with manipulation and artifice. Very little is actually as it is presented. Presentation is nearly always based on maximum benefit. That is the foundational dialog and status quo. Those who succeed in the environment know this and become expert. STs have an incredible advantage. Softer types do well if assisted by a hard-core image strategist.

MM has a great strategy. 1. Shock value and deliberate controversy to establish sound-bite attention. 2. A dialog that connects with present day cynicism and psychological needs. 3. The ability to create dual images - one for shock value and sensation to obtain attention, the second to connect with the 'average joe'. The performing arts are all about presenting yourself as larger than life and at the same time make each person think you are singing to them personally. That is prepackaged strategy. It is done all the time. It also makes me kinda sick.
 

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Ni is good at creating an image -- Ni envisions things in the mind. Consequently, Ni could involve envisioning a personal image.

I think what all of us need to do is gear ourselves away from the Keirsey stereotypes. Creating a self-image of the self is indeed an N thing. The S doesn't create an idealized self-image, they are the real image.
 

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Ni is good at creating an image -- Ni envisions things in the mind. Consequently, Ni could involve envisioning a personal image.
So then INTJs and INFJs are the best at creating image? Both being Ni dominant? This seems rather unlikely. Those are two types that struggle the most to even get a date. Image conscious people are those who succeed socially. I'd venture to say that IN Js are among the least proficient at this.

I find that Ni is not connected enough to the concrete world to revel in image. Si is more akin to this.
 

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So then INTJs and INFJs are the best at creating image? Both being Ni dominant? This seems rather unlikely.

I find that Ni is not connected enough to the concrete world to revel in image. Si is more akin to this.

I'm not saying all INxJs are good at creating an image, but that is logically more in the domain of N than S.

Berens and Nardi's cognitive processes said:
Introverted iNtuiting: Foreseeing implications and likely effects without external data; realizing “what will be”; conceptualizing new ways of seeing things; envisioning transformations; getting an image of profound meaning or far-reaching symbols. Envisioning yourself in an outfit or maybe envisioning yourself being a certain way.

Introverted Sensing: Reviewing past experiences; “what is” evoking “what was”; seeking detailed information and links to what is known; recalling stored impressions; accumulating data; recognizing the way things have always been. Remembering the last time you wore a particular item or the last time you were at a similar event—maybe even remembering how you felt then.

Creating an image of the self does seem much more Ni than Si.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Creating an image of the self does seem much more Ni than Si.
Also consider the whole "keeping up with the Jones'" concept of presenting oneself with the most beautiful house, expensive car, credentials, who you know name dropping, displaying wealth, becoming valued successful archetypes, etc. That too is about image.

The question is what type of image do other respond to.

I guess my position is this: What appears to be new and innovative in the arts to others, often looks very formulaic to me. It looks more Si than Ni to me.

Now Kurt Cobain looks like an N to me. Not because of anything he said, but the way his value system exhibited itself in his actions, the way he responded to "the machine". He was incompatible with it. Most pop artists are completely compatible - that is why they succeed. It is prepackaged strategy. Not foresight.

Edit: Also, it's worth noting that STPs are actually 'gifted' at image creation. This is why the ESTP gets the archetype of the conman. ISTPs aren't shabby either. They can exhibit incredibly soft traits while being quite the opposite. Image creation is more about persistence, shock value, than it is about nuance. People's desires and needs are pretty basic - especially when dealing with the public at large. The successful image-creator assesses those rather painfully obvious needs and then hammers their point home. Works every time.
 

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Okay, now I see where you're getting at.

But humans are gregarious creatures. They want to impress others. The difference is that the S impresses in a prescribed way -- like showing off hip and trendy clothes. But the N impresses in unusual ways, or what they perceive as unusual ways.
 

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There's really very little speaking for him as an SP. In fact, N and J are Marilyn Mansons strongest MBTI-traits. Consider Trent Reznor, Manson's off-on friend and mentor from adolessence: They basically hold the same views on religion and morality, yet Reznor (a probable SP) is somewhat discreet, personal and indirect about them whereas Manson wants/wanted to inflate his points and shove them down the throat of everyone in America. To him the problems of religion and morality seem all-permeading (N) whereas Reznor treats them as lyrical means to a musical end (S).

I'm with you all on the NFJ.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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There's really very little speaking for him as an SP. In fact, N and J are Marilyn Mansons strongest MBTI-traits. Consider Trent Reznor, Manson's off-on friend and mentor from adolessence: They basically hold the same views on religion and morality, yet Reznor (a probable SP) is somewhat discreet, personal and indirect about them whereas Manson wants/wanted to inflate his points and shove them down the throat of everyone in America. To him the problems of religion and morality seem all-permeading (N) whereas Reznor treats them as lyrical means to a musical end (S).

I'm with you all on the NFJ.

I found some more interview clips. He said he despises sports which does lean towards N. It implies a lack of sensory presence.

Why has he generally been assumed an introvert? Most of these celebrity threads are assuming introversion. Why is that? He seems significantly extroverted to me even in the interviews. Not high energy bubbly, but very 'smooth', playing every card with O'Reilly. He is so comfortable being 'seen'. He said he was shy, but that is not a determining factor for introversion. The social energy required to perform in the spectacle driven manner he does seems extroverted as does the desire to reach out and shock. Everyone is 'shy' to some extent - it's a matter of context. Remember the majority of people are extroverts and celebrity by nature nurtures extroversion. Truly introverted celebrities are going to be a significant minority.

I lean towards ESTP or ENFJ. He seems to portray both - there is a kind of dichotomy/inconsistency in his presentation. One minute he says 'it's just entertainment', then the next it has deep moral implications and questioning. I see this inconsistency as either using the 'just entertainment' angle to get people off his back, or else using the 'moral questioning' as a way to promote two angles and thus get an increased fanbase.

Edit: interesting anecdote...
For one year i had access to a mentor who had performed at the pinnacle of the field of opera. He was an ENFJ, but not particularly strong NF - he actually took the test and emailed me his results so this is not conjectured. He was very deliberate in creating image, telling me that he studied the mannerisms of successful people and practiced these in the mirror. He suggested i do the same. Pageantry and drama were his home. He was also a strategist for earning money. His charisma was out the wazoo - he just dripped with it and it wasn't the bubbly sunshiny type. His manner was at times reticent and vulnerable, occassionally tripping or stumbling on words. He was a hardcore extrovert despite this. When shifting to topics of politics and morality he became very intense, even angry to a slightly frightening degree. He enjoyed shocking people and throwing them off a bit. He was masterful at getting people attached to him. I can see some significant parallels. An ENFJ with a fairly present STP is possibly the most potent charismatic figure. That's what i would bet on MM.

INFJs are the master of understatement. While they can make a strong impact on people, it tends to be on an individual basis, rather than the extroverted impact on the masses. I'm thinking that ENFJs have more mastery with overstatement. Just a thought.
 
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