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Marilyn Manson's type

Economica

Dhampyr
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As for the overall INFJ reading, isn't he in fact a poster boy? :)

I worked for a male INFJ employer. Not even close.

Yay, someone else brought the personal recognition argument to the table! I see your male INFJ employer and I raise you a close male INFJ friend (Fisherking). :yes:

By poster boy I was referring to his poetically just messiah identity. (See the OP.)

Regarding Introversion, I actually see him as a clear-cut Introvert based on his interactive style in interviews. He is in the limelight, but I see him as being there in service of his Ni rather than because he craves the attention itself. (Notice how he idealistically refused to give interviews in the Columbine aftermath but simply published the written statement I link to in the OP.) Compare with other image-heavy shock artists (Madonna, say) who wanted all eyes on them but then turned out to have nothing to say.
 

The Ü™

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I personally think that Madonna is more ENTP. Most say ESTP, but ESTPs don't really try to shock because as Sensors, they're more earthy, they're into performance purely for enjoyment.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Regarding Introversion, I actually see him as a clear-cut Introvert based on his interactive style in interviews...
He looks extroverted to me there. He is incredibly smooth with his answers - and quick to respond. I didn't notice him introvert at all in the clips attached here. I guess that's just a subjective perception. Put an actual introvert in that same context and it will be looking quite different. Robert DeNiro is a good example of that.

Even if he had looked like he was introverting, mannerisms are gained childhood associations and can mean a variety of things. Actions are a far stronger determiner of I/E. Time spent alone - what percentage of one's time is alone or with groups is an indicator. What info is there regarding this?
 

Economica

Dhampyr
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He looks extroverted to me there. He is incredibly smooth with his answers - and quick to respond.

In the O'Reilly interview, he's prepared for the questions. When that's the case, I can be that smooth too. :happy:

I'll link to more interviews where his introversion is more obvious after I grab dinner.

I didn't notice him introvert at all in the clips attached here. I guess that's just a subjective perception. Put an actual introvert in that same context and it will be looking quite different. Robert DeNiro is a good example of that.

Are you saying that Robert De Niro's level of Introversion is representative? :huh:

What info is there regarding this?

Dunno. He paints a lot.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Are you saying that Robert De Niro's level of Introversion is representative? :huh:
It is representative of the introverts i'm accustomed to. Perhaps my view is skewed by more intense introversion? My understanding is that introversion is more than just being a little shy and spending some free time alone, but rather it is someone whose energy is depleted by the pressures of social interaction whether this be performance, small talk, interviews, etc. While it is true that people often choose to do what they fear the most, the introvert's recovery time will be apparent in their life. Here are some examples of introverts including some performers.

1. Principal performer for a major orchestra in Chicago spends her off season living completely alone in a remote cabin.

2. University composition professor lives alone and resists the efforts of neighbors to interact. He doesn't greet those he passes or engage in small talk. He is seen as aloof and austere. He spends his time alone composing, reading literature and philosophy.

3. Programmer with social anxiety lives alone and only interacts with others online. He works from home and occassionally drives to a scenic location to spend time taking pictures which he then posts on the internet. Days, even weeks can pass without interacting with people irl.

4. An introverted couple never once in their lifetimes have anyone over for dinner. They spend much of their time together on their computers or watching tv. They rarely ever interact socially outside the home.

5. A fledgling performer gives a few concerts a year which are dreaded for their social dimension. While setting up the eager audiences watch her asking questions. This creates a level of anxiety and depletion that places the performance at risk.

6. After attending a required society meeting in which there are politics and social complexities, one introvert spends time observing and smiling, then immediately falls asleep on returning home in order to recuperate.

7. An introverted programmer is distracted and uncomfortable with questions about his life and thoughts. He feels no pressure whatsoever to answer. He is unbothered by the potential social tension this creates.

Everyone feels a little shy in life and can get tired from too much activity. Introverts are a minority because they require alone time primarily to recoup. Most people are somewhere inbetween where they can get some energy from people and some from alone time. Introverts who spend their entire lives performing, giving interviews, meeting fans, etc. would either go crazy, require stimulants, or significant alone time that would be difficult to miss. The celebrity lifestyle pushes the boundaries of what an extrovert can handle. It is not the domain of the introvert. The context really skews things. We see someone nervous or reticent in a highly social environment and assume introversion. Extroverts get nervous over this stuff. Introverts tend to shut down in relation to such environments. DeNiro showed signs of shutting down. The rest don't. I was also going to suggest that Kidman is not an introvert after thinking about it more.
 

Economica

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It is representative of the introverts i'm accustomed to. Perhaps my view is skewed by more intense introversion?

I would say so. :shock:

I don't think I'll bother looking for more MM interviews if that is your measure of introversion. (Not out of disrespect but because I won't find any interviews where he shuts down like you describe.)
 

Siúil a Rúin

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I would say so. :shock:

I don't think I'll bother looking for more MM interviews if that is your measure of introversion. (Not out of disrespect but because I won't find any interviews where he shuts down like you describe.)

Our friend Wiki
wikipedia on introversion said:
Introversion is "the state of or tendency toward being wholly or predominantly concerned with and interested in one's own mental life".[2] Introverts tend to be quiet, low-key, deliberate, and relatively non-engaged in social situations. They take pleasure in solitary activities such as reading, writing, drawing, watching movies, listening to music, inventing, and designing. An introverted person is likely to enjoy time spent alone and find less reward in time spent with large groups of people (although they may enjoy one-to-one or one-to-few interactions with close friends). They prefer to concentrate on a single activity at a time and like to observe situations before they participate.[4]

Introversion is not the same as shyness, though introverts are often also shy. Introverts choose solitary over social activities by preference, whereas shy people avoid social encounters out of fear. [5]

An introvert is energized when alone. Introverts tend to "fade" when with people and can easily become overstimulated with too many others around. Introverts tend to think before speaking . When given the chance, an introvert will sit alone and think rather than talk with someone else.

wikipedia on extroversion said:
Extraversion is "the act, state, or habit of being predominantly concerned with and obtaining gratification from what is outside the self".[2] Extraverts tend to enjoy human interactions and to be enthusiastic, talkative, assertive, and gregarious. They take pleasure in activities that involve large social gatherings, such as parties, community activities, public demonstrations, and business or political groups. An extraverted person is likely to enjoy time spent with people and find less reward in time spent alone. They enjoy risk-taking and often show leadership abilities.[3]

An extravert is energized when around other people. Extraverts tend to "fade" when alone and can easily become bored without other people around. Extraverts tend to think as they speak. When given the chance, an extravert will talk with someone else rather than sit alone and think.

In the O'Reilly interview, i believe, MM recounted when a fan came up on stage and took off their clothes. MM evidently took the opportunity to perform some type of simulated sex act that was controversial. I'll just venture that anyone with the 'wherewithall' to respond to such a situation in that manner is prolly not an introvert. HELLO :happy2:
 

Economica

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Our friend Wiki

Seriously, toonia, I think you were right to ask whether your view was skewed by more intense introversion. I could do a talk show as well (regarding level of I-E) as MM, NK etc. and so could many definite Introverts I know.

But perhaps that question was just rhetorical, fellow INXJ? :rolleyes:
 

Blackwater

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In this article, publications from the last 15 years are used to describe introversion. Without pledging allegience to MM as an introvert I'll say that modern psychological definitions of introversion tend to differ from the way MBTI regards it. One example is the fact that in MBTI, if you are 51% I and 49% E you will, for all practical purposes, be regarded as I within the model. This is not compatible with modern empirical research.

So watch out for those confusing double meanings - they'll all too easily trigger a nonsense discussion.
 

Economica

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Status:

- Jennifer, Uberfuhrer and I say INFJ
- ptgatsby says INFX, possibly INFJ
- Blackwater says NFJ
- toonia says ?

Anyone else want to contribute to the typing? I'd like to be beyond sure about this one. :)
 

cafe

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I don't rule out his being an INFJ from the information presented.

I agree that his writing was a bit disjointed for an INFJ (maybe he was stoned?). And I think he could also be a T type. The whole, "I'm just expressing myself. It's not my fault if kids take it wrong" doesn't strike me as very F, but maybe it's a gender thing or something.

I don't think the exhibitionism, etc has to mean he's an extrovert. Haven't we all gotten caught up in a performance and did things we later couldn't quite believe what we said/did?

Also, even though I'm a fairly strong introvert, I can talk comfortably to almost anyone one on one in most settings if they are open to talking with me.

Where's heart? She's married to an INFJ, I believe.
 

The Ü™

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I don't rule out his being an INFJ from the information presented.

I agree that his writing was a bit disjointed for an INFJ (maybe he was stoned?). And I think he could also be a T type. The whole, "I'm just expressing myself. It's not my fault if kids take it wrong" doesn't strike me as very F, but maybe it's a gender thing or something.

I don't think the exhibitionism, etc has to mean he's an extrovert. Haven't we all gotten caught up in a performance and did things we later couldn't quite believe what we said/did?

Also, even though I'm a fairly strong introvert, I can talk comfortably to almost anyone one on one in most settings if they are open to talking with me.

Where's heart? She's married to an INFJ, I believe.

Very true, I can easily see Marilyn Manson being an INTJ or even slight ENTJ, as well. But his shocking bluntness is definitely some kind of NJ. The NP's expression would be more subtle and the SP's more down-to-earth.
 

Economica

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And I think he could also be a T type. The whole, "I'm just expressing myself. It's not my fault if kids take it wrong" doesn't strike me as very F, but maybe it's a gender thing or something.

Very true, I can easily see Marilyn Manson being an INTJ or even slight ENTJ, as well.

I see him as definitely F. I share his mentality (Ni) up to a point where our minds definitively diverge (T/F) - much like how I relate to Fisherking, in fact. :)

Various quotes I find illustrative of F:

Sensitivity:

"I've always been very sensitive, and I think that, to me, would be obvious to people," Manson said, "but I guess they missed that. If you're going to have an extreme emotion like anger in a song, or extreme sadness, then it means you also have to have all of the other emotions. ... But I'm sort of overly sensitive, and I think a lot of times people will talk about me like I'm not a person or criticize things that I do or criticize the way I look or just any of those things. It still affects me like it would anybody else."

Accommodation:

I started to feel bad about being me. I started to feel like I had to turn me off somehow, to prove that I fit into this convention I know now didn't suit me properly. ... I don't necessarily think I couldn't be married again. I think that I assumed - and it was me projecting my idea of romance onto Dita - that she believed in things the same way I did. I think we got to a point where she was feeling like, 'Well, I assumed you would eventually grow out of this.' And I'm saying, 'But this is me.' My marriage started to transform into something that was too concerned with the rest of the world, with how it would get portrayed in Vogue magazine - and that sort of thing was exactly what I had fought hard to stand against. But I got lost between love and belief in myself. I didn't know who I was supposed to be anymore.

Accommodation and love:

Is there any good way to divorce?

'I think that somebody's always going to suffer more. And I'd think I hurt her more. But only because she didn't understand the amount of pain I went through before it became apparent to her. She didn't understand that my idea of the relationship was suffering for longer than she knew. And so when things ended equally between us, she might have assumed that I didn't care. Not realising that I had been experiencing it for much longer.'

That's a very female way to work things through.

'Is it?'

Very.

'So I'm a girl? You're saying I'm a girl?' Marilyn Manson laughs; easily, and with feeling. It's unexpected, and lovely.

(...)

Is he really in love? 'Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely!' Furthermore, he had no issue with falling in love, after his marriage failed. 'It's actually easy for me, because it didn't make me cynical. My current relationship gives me the ability to realise where I've always gone wrong in my life, not just in my divorce. To realise I was always thinking: I wish that my life could be like the movies, like Bonnie and Clyde or The Hunger or Harold and Maude. And... it can be! It maybe just takes somebody else who is as fearless as you. It takes a person who will not hesitate.'

To attain... movie love?

'Yeah. Because now, my only definition of romance is that somebody has to be willing to hold hands and jump off the cliff with you. At that point, you don't want to die any more.'
 

Worth

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From what Economica posted above, Marilyn Manson could be an INFJ. However, to me, he sounds more like an INFP. .

He obviously has very high ideals of himself. The fact that he says, "I'm just expressing myself. It's not my fault if kids take it wrong" sounds like he has uncompromisable personal ideals. Also, I know plenty of INFPs who are uncomfortable around people, especially the male ones. INFPs tend to be less loquacious then other NFs. Also, when he is discussing how his relationship ended with Dita, he is only concerned with his own feelings like a dominant Fi would. From what I could picture from reading the quotes, he sounded like he was defending himself far more than criticizing himself.

He is a strong advocate for himself who has a strong personal value system. He sounds more like an INFP to me, but I could be wrong.
 

the state i am in

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i assumed he was an intj based on his whole shtick. it's definitely inj Ni dom. i get more Fi than Fe.
 

astroninja

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Is Marilyn Manson an INTP?

I get the feeling that Marilyn Manson might be an INTP.

Thoughts?

Why I think that Manson might be an INTP? (In contrast to his outward public image)

He admits to being shy in real life. Reserved.
He defends his stance with facts and is very articulate in his point of view.
He is more concerned with the overall ideology behind his music than how it is carried out.
He only reacts strongly to events that directly infringe upon his values.
He is very composed in his arguments, allowing people to challenge and question his point of view, but only if he is permitted to defend it.
Widely misunderstood and misinterpreted by the media. Enjoys taking the literal and turning them into a form of figurative symbolism.
Very awkward in talking about his feelings and emotions in interviews, and presents them only as a retrospective.
Battles with self-doubt, and gets easily restless in doing the same thing for too long a time.

Watch these videos and tell me what you guys think he is!

YouTube - Marilyn Manson - Interview in Berlin (Uncut) - Part 1 - this is almost a cookie-cutter inside view into an INTP's mind when it is feeling at its most insecure and detached with an underdeveloped 'feeling' side. Seems very INTP to me, when an INTP is feeling 'low' in life.

YouTube - Marilyn Manson - Interview in Berlin (Uncut) - Part 2
"The world is such a victim of itself. I think that my opinion is equal to everyone else's even if it's different. If anything is going to change the world, it should be the idea that you can change one person's thoughts, rather than telling them how to do it."
"I don't feel a need to really waste emotions; it doesn't mean that I don't have sympathy or empathy. I'm just saying that it shouldn't affect me any more than the next person."
"I am not interested in the way I lead my life; I'm more interested in the 'why'."

YouTube - Marylin Manson on the O'Reilly Factor
 

BlackCat

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I always figured he was an INTP.
 

INTP

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no idea since i dont really know the guy or much about his music, but somehow he seems more infj to me
 

INTP

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btw soulfly version of the beautiful people > marilyns
 
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