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Gandalf, Saruman and Galadriel

yeghor

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Galadriel is the last remaining leader of the Noldor Exile from Valinor thousands of years ago.... She was ambitious then, she longed for a place away from Valinor that was open and unspoiled and that she could rule over... but it seems like less than a power thing and more of just to have something that was truly hers and where she had to answer to no one. Self-autonomy? Anyway, she helped lead her faction to safety even after betrayed by Feanor, and eventually found that place for herself.

Why did she have a desire to rule over her own domain and people?

With all the power and essence she had, why was she not able to detect the enemy scheming?

When she is offered the ring by Frodo, she turns monstrous for a moment and claims if she had the ring, she would be a powerful queen who everyone would love and despair. What does that tell about her core self?

Why does not the ring have that temptation and corrupting effect on Frodo?

 

Totenkindly

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Why did she have a desire to rule over her own domain and people?

With all the power and essence she had, why was she not able to detect the enemy scheming?

When she is offered the ring by Frodo, she turns monstrous for a moment and claims if she had the ring, she would be a powerful queen who everyone would love and despair. What does that tell about her core self?

Why does not the ring have that temptation and corrupting effect on Frodo?

I despise the special effects in that video clip, why'd you have to post that garbage?

Some of the questions you ask, I don't think are answered.

She's obviously ambitious, and that drove her more than the feelings of revenge and possessiveness that drove Feanor and his clan to break with the Valar. She also clearly states she desires power, in order to do good, but she is very aware of the corrupting influence on power.

(She very clearly sees her choice as remaining in Middle Earth and claiming power in order to accomplish her goals OR accepting she should not wield such power and returning to the West.)

The hobbits in general care less about power, compared to the other races. They have a simpler day to day existence, are less pretentious, and are more interested in enjoying what life they have on a personal basis. Note that Gollum owns the ring for MANY years, and Bilbo owns it for a few decades, but what do they use it for? Turning invisible to suit their small needs (like hunting for food or disappearing from the view of social pests). They don't really have any ambitions to use it as a means to dominate. Tolkien viewed hobbits as a simpler, less ambitious race.

Frodo is actually portrayed as more pure in general than even your regular hobbit. He seems above any of the common rural pettiness. He's a bit aloof from the other hobbits throughout the story, set apart like his uncle Bilbo (his parents also died when he was young). He has nothing to gain from bearing the ring but feels a responsibility to do so anyway, and he has seen its effect on his Uncle and doesn't want to use it. There's this great image of him as a long-suffering angel near Mount Doom, with a wheel of fire at his breast, pronouncing doom on Gollum if he dares to touch the ring again. After the Ring is destroyed, he suffers and finally leaves because the experience has changed him too much so he can no longer be happy in that environment. We basically have a suffering, sacrificial hero; he bears the cost of the Ring's burden and ultimate destruction, even if he is still mortal and can't quite seal the deal.

no mortal can really resist the ring regardless of purity. Frodo goes through fits of madness the closer they get to the Ring's doom, and at the very threshold of the fires he cannot resist it any longer. But out of anyone in the story, aside from maybe Faramir, he is able to resist the Ring's influence for a long time. (Sam, I think, it tempted more -- at one point I think he has visions of himself as a hero, although he too shrugs them off.) Note that Faramir has nothing to prove either, in the book. He's off doing his own thing despite the wishes of his father and I think has come to terms with that. The movie version of Faramir was very different and there's still drama between book and film fans over that depiction.

Basically, the less that people desire power, the less they care for the ring -- they see it as a shackle, not as a temptation.

Even Gandalf, who is one of the "better" characters, refuses utterly to touch the Ring. He fears he would be tempted to use it "for good" but knows it corrupts.

Then it would not be wrong to say that Saruman and Gandalf (and Radagast) are quite different personalities.

To flesh that out a bit more:

Radagast looks very different from Saruman and Gandalf (so picture him off to one side in his own sphere, so to speak).

Then you have Saruman and Gandalf who look more similar on the surface and move in similar circles... but once you get down into their core motivations and such, they differ much more than anticipated.

Put another way, the word "fire" is both used to represent them at different times -- but Saruman is the fire that consumes and destroys and alters, whereas Gandalf is the fire that inspires and warms and purifies.
 

yeghor

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I despise the special effects in that video clip, why'd you have to post that garbage?

It is the only version available to illustrate the point.

She's obviously ambitious, and that drove her more than the feelings of revenge and possessiveness that drove Feanor and his clan to break with the Valar. She also clearly states she desires power, in order to do good, but she is very aware of the corrupting influence on power.

(She very clearly sees her choice as remaining in Middle Earth and claiming power in order to accomplish her goals OR accepting she should not wield such power and returning to the West.)

How to differentiate between Galadriel and Gandalf then? What would their ennagram types be?

The hobbits in general care less about power, compared to the other races. Tolkien viewed hobbits as a simpler, less ambitious race.

Frodo is actually portrayed as more pure in general than even your regular hobbit. He seems above any of the common rural pettiness. He's a bit aloof from the other hobbits throughout the story, set apart like his uncle Bilbo (his parents also died when he was young). He has nothing to gain from bearing the ring but feels a responsibility to do so anyway, and he has seen its effect on his Uncle and doesn't want to use it.

Note that Faramir has nothing to prove either, in the book. He's off doing his own thing despite the wishes of his father and I think has come to terms with that. The movie version of Faramir was very different and there's still drama between book and film fans over that depiction.

Basically, the less that people desire power, the less they care for the ring -- they see it as a shackle, not as a temptation.

How can the desire for "power" and also "purity of heart" be related to MBTI and enneagram?

To flesh that out a bit more:

Radagast looks very different from Saruman and Gandalf (so picture him off to one side in his own sphere, so to speak).

Then you have Saruman and Gandalf who look more similar on the surface and move in similar circles... but once you get down into their core motivations and such, they differ much more than anticipated.

Put another way, the word "fire" is both used to represent them at different times -- but Saruman is the fire that consumes and destroys and alters, whereas Gandalf is the fire that inspires and warms and purifies.

How to differentiate between Saruman (destructive flame) and Gandalf (warming flame) then? What would their ennagram types be?
 

Totenkindly

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It is the only version available to illustrate the point.

Are we really a 100% video format generation now? There's such a thing as a "text quote."

Jackson can be credited for actually getting this story to screen, but some aspects of the text would have been better served with a less literal, flashy director, since the content of Tolkien's work was not about special effects but essence. A lot of directorial tricks could have been used to be more suggestive rather than gaudy, especially when it didn't even capture the feeling of the text. (Some things he did more intuitively, like the opening comments from Galadriel about the passing of time. That was nice.)

How to differentiate between Galadriel and Gandalf then? What would their ennagram types be?

How can the desire for "power" and also "purity of heart" be related to MBTI and enneagram?

How to differentiate between Saruman (destructive flame) and Gandalf (warming flame) then? What would their ennagram types be?

Do you have any opinions on these questions yourself? This is your thread, but everyone else is doing all the work.
 

yeghor

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Are we really a 100% video format generation now? There's such a thing as a "text quote."

Jackson can be credited for actually getting this story to screen, but some aspects of the text would have been better served with a less literal, flashy director, since the content of Tolkien's work was not about special effects but essence. A lot of directorial tricks could have been used to be more suggestive rather than gaudy, especially when it didn't even capture the feeling of the text. (Some things he did more intuitively, like the opening comments from Galadriel about the passing of time. That was nice.)

It is more about preference than generation. I like audio-visual learning better than reading text. Text cannot deliver theatrics either.

Do you have any opinions on these questions yourself? This is your thread, but everyone else is doing all the work.

I am eager to hear members' opinions. I mostly see Saruman, Galadriel and Gandalf more or less typed the same so I am curious about how to differentiate their typing cause they are anything but the same.
 

yeghor

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Regarding Galadriel's type

At 4:00 minute mark in the below video, we learn that Galadriel had a desire to rule over her own lands.

At 20:13 mark, we learn that even before leaving Elven Lands towards East, she has had a desire for power.

At 5:20 mark, Galadriel ignores a Valar's warning against proceeding East.

At 11:15 mark, we are told that Galadriel had the ability of insight into others' minds.

When Frodo offered her the master ring, her ego desires were magnified and she said if she had the ring middle earth would have a dark queen instead of a dark lord and all would love her and despair.

All that makes me think that Galadriel was an enneagram 3, probably a 3w2.

THREE | Defunct Blog


Her history from Elven Lands to Human Lands can be found in the video below:

 

Totenkindly

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It is more about preference than generation. I like audio-visual learning better than reading text. Text cannot deliver theatrics either.

I am eager to hear members' opinions. I mostly see Saruman, Galadriel and Gandalf more or less typed the same so I am curious about how to differentiate their typing cause they are anything but the same.

Yeah, I see Galadriel as different than the two Istari, as the most notably different -- look and feel wise. I am not sure of her type, but likewise cannot argue against 3w2, esp with my lack of really knowing any Three folks IRL for comparison (that I am aware of). But ... it sounds viable? I understand the theory of it. It's the ambition element coupled with a true desire to serve (like she does with the Fellowship, counseling and providing them gifts to enable them -- plus her entire role in maintaining the forest.)

I see Dumbledore in the Harry Potter films as being modeled after Gandalf, if I had to make a comparison of wizards -- they're more similar than Gandalf and Saruman. Both of them (D and G) ultimately are benevolent, they kind of keep to their own counsel, they're inquisitive but also fairly friendly to others on the surface and are typically beloved. Basically they both gather information and piece it together to reach a conclusion. Strategic thinkers and reactive, even if they do initiate behind the scenes to try to make certain things happen; they might "soft manipulate" people but don't like to control them outright and want buy-in, not coercion... not just because it is beneath them but they consider the freedom to choose to be a kind of "good" of its own and coercion might even actually taint the outcome.

You know, like Gandalf did kind of manipulate Bilbo into going on the Quest, how the fellowship fell together, getting the Ring to Frodo, and so on -- but he also felt these actions were good for the people involved (as well as for the overall good that would occur). He is also very reactive to things that happen along the way. Like, he didn't plan to send Sam, but he realized Sam was very committed to Frodo and caught him eavesdropping, so he basically said "Hey you're going now." This is a very TP approach to strategy, you're incorporating new things that you discover along the way. Integrative. Dumbledore was similar too -- he had a lot of plans unfolding and broad strategies that actually made him look a little worse once we realized he did (he was viewing people as parts of a big puzzle to achieve success, so it can seem cold at times) but he was still doing it for benevolent reasons.... and he never MADE people do things, Harry was always free to decide what sacrifices he was willing to make, in the end.

Saruman meanwhile was very much about exerting his will over things in his environment and MAKING things come out as he desired -- the TJ approach. He had a plan that he thought was best. If you didn't serve his plan, he was inclined to make you, so that his plans would unfold as, well... planned. I think this also comes out in his being the Many Skilled, the crafter. Everything was a tool to him, that he shaped to suit his plan.
 

yeghor

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...Basically they both gather information and piece it together to reach a conclusion. Strategic thinkers and reactive, even if they do initiate behind the scenes to try to make certain things happen; they might "soft manipulate" people but don't like to control them outright and want buy-in, not coercion... not just because it is beneath them but they consider the freedom to choose to be a kind of "good" of its own and coercion might even actually taint the outcome.

You know, like Gandalf did kind of manipulate Bilbo into going on the Quest, how the fellowship fell together, getting the Ring to Frodo, and so on -- but he also felt these actions were good for the people involved (as well as for the overall good that would occur). He is also very reactive to things that happen along the way. Like, he didn't plan to send Sam, but he realized Sam was very committed to Frodo and caught him eavesdropping, so he basically said "Hey you're going now." This is a very TP approach to strategy, you're incorporating new things that you discover along the way. Integrative. Dumbledore was similar too -- he had a lot of plans unfolding and broad strategies that actually made him look a little worse once we realized he did (he was viewing people as parts of a big puzzle to achieve success, so it can seem cold at times) but he was still doing it for benevolent reasons.... and he never MADE people do things, Harry was always free to decide what sacrifices he was willing to make, in the end.

Saruman meanwhile was very much about exerting his will over things in his environment and MAKING things come out as he desired -- the TJ approach. He had a plan that he thought was best. If you didn't serve his plan, he was inclined to make you, so that his plans would unfold as, well... planned. I think this also comes out in his being the Many Skilled, the crafter. Everything was a tool to him, that he shaped to suit his plan.

Dumbledore comes off a bit colder than Gandalf to me. Maybe it is because of the actors' difference in style or demeanor. Dumbledore gaudes Harry and protects him when necessary yet I do not get this caring/feeling expression from him that Gandalf displays in the video below, do not know if they made him more empathic in the movie then that in the books:

See Gandalf's expression at 6 second mark:


He acts more as a counsel and guide to characters in the movie and he tries to warn them about threats near and far and tries to position them in critical locations yet he exposes himself as well in the process (I do not recall Dumbledore exposing himself much by the way, did he?).

Gandalf is more covert whereas Saruman is more overt so I think of Gandalf as an introvert and Saruman as an extravert, where the latter wants to impose his will on the environment, and the former to guide/persuade others.

That's why I am inclined to type Gandalf as a 1w2. That might explain him being more like a warm flame as well.

ONE | Defunct Blog
 

yeghor

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Dumbledore comes off a bit colder than Gandalf to me. Maybe it is because of the actors' difference in style or demeanor. Dumbledore gaudes Harry and protects him when necessary yet I do not get this caring/feeling expression from him that Gandalf displays in the video below, do not know if they made him more empathic in the movie then that in the books:

He acts more as a counsel and guide to characters in the movie and he tries to warn them about threats near and far and tries to position them in critical locations yet he exposes himself as well in the process (I do not recall Dumbledore exposing himself much by the way, did he?).

Having thought some more on this, I think Dumbledore (in contrast to Gandalf) is much more controlling yet he hides it so well and is so subtle that people do not notice.

I would type Dumbledore as ENTJ for that reason, and Snape as INTJ and Gandalf as INFJ to provide a comparison between these types. Dumbledore's enneagram would probably be 6w5 and Snape 1w9.

As for Voldemort, he is mentioned as a psychopath with desire for power to avoid being harmed so that makes me think he was an unheathy ESTP, an ennagram type 8w7 probably.


Will get back to Saruman and maybe Sauran later.


For Dumbledore and Snape, See 0:43, 1:43, 2:00, 2:23, 2:55, 3:16, 4:53 marks in video below (or watch the whole thing, it is only 6 mins):

 

yeghor

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Regarding Galadriel's type

At 4:00 minute mark in the below video, we learn that Galadriel had a desire to rule over her own lands.

At 20:13 mark, we learn that even before leaving Elven Lands towards East, she has had a desire for power.

At 5:20 mark, Galadriel ignores a Valar's warning against proceeding East.

At 11:15 mark, we are told that Galadriel had the ability of insight into others' minds.

When Frodo offered her the master ring, her ego desires were magnified and she said if she had the ring middle earth would have a dark queen instead of a dark lord and all would love her and despair.

All that makes me think that Galadriel was an enneagram 3, probably a 3w2.

THREE | Defunct Blog

To illustrate the difference between Gandalf and Galadriel; note that Gandalf is an INFJ (1w2) whereas Galadriel is an ENFJ (3w2).
 

yeghor

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Regarding Saruman:

At 3:05 mark we learn that Saruman wanted to be the one leading the armies against Sauron

At 8:50 we learn that Saruman started creating his own orc army to counter Sauron (chopping the nearby forest and angering the treants)

At 9:10 we learn that Saruman still wants to be the one to rule the Middle Earth

At 10:20 we learn that both Saruman and Sauron were in service of the Ainu (demigod) Aule as spirits and are of similar demeanor. Aule represented smithing and crafting (industry).



Regarding Sauron:

At 1:05 mark we learn that Sauron was focused on creating a perfect world.

At 2:30 we learn that Sauron did not hesitate to cut corners for his goals of creating a perfectly working system, yet hurting others in the process.

At 4:30 we learn that Sauron decides that he has to assert his will to hasten the creation of the perfect system to ensure physical and well-being of inhabitants of Middle Eart..

At 5:05 we learn that he tried to achieve complete power to ensure his goals.

At 5:30 we learn that Morgoth (Sauron's Master) was a nihilist (this suggests Morgoth was a Ti-type)

At 5:40 we learn that Sauron wanted to replace the creators rules with his own (impose his will to create order, Te)

At 9:55 we learn that Sauron regimented the chaotic Orcs into a disciplined army.

At 10:20 we learn that Sauron's end goals for power changed over time to gaining power for the sake of it.

At 11:08 we learn that Sauron believed he would be a benevolent dictator but he got blinded and lost sight of his goals over time as he amassed more power.



Based on these I believe Saruman and Sauron have similar demeanors and vices yet Saruman is more straightforward and conventional in his apprach and Sauron is subtler and more cunning.

That's why I would type Saruman as ESTJ (6w5) and Sauron as ENTJ (6w5), both are Te-doms with different style of amassing power structures around themselves.
 

yeghor

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So we ended up with:

Galadriel ENFJ (3w2)

Gandalf INFJ (1w2)

Aragorn ISFJ (9w1) (given as a contrast to INFJ, please see the 3:48 mark in the 3rd video below and notice how he emphasizes oath and honor. Also see the 4th video where he keeps his word.)

Saruman ESTJ (6w5)

Sauron ENTJ (6w5)

Radagast INFP (4w5) (This also explains why Saruman had so little appreciation of Radagast as the former's inferior function was Fi)


Also see at 8:05 mark in the first video below, there is a nice narrative contrasting the demeanor of Radagast, Saruman and Gandalf.




 

yeghor

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Regarding Saruman:

Based on these I believe Saruman and Sauron have similar demeanors and vices yet Saruman is more straightforward and conventional in his apprach and Sauron is subtler and more cunning.

That's why I would type Saruman as ESTJ (6w5) and Sauron as ENTJ (6w5), both are Te-doms with different style of amassing power structures around themselves.

Can Saruman be an INTP (5w4) instead of ESTJ (6w5)?

I typed him as ESTJ cause he wanted to amass power to counter Sauron and to have the lead role in the fight against Sauron, and even rule the Middle Earth afterwards.

Also Saruman is said to have a persuasive voice, which I took for Te:

"Tolkien describes the nature of the power of Saruman's voice in Letter #210: Saruman's voice was not hypnotic but persuasive. Those who listened to him were not in danger of falling into a trance, but of agreeing with his arguments, while fully awake."

Yet he is also a bit underhanded and also hungry for knowledge. He used magic to subvert Rohan to his will rather than using brute force, and kept secrets from the white council.

Assuming that Sauron was an ENTJ, that would explain Saruman's fascination with him given that they (INTP and ENTJ) would be like the two halves of the same apple.

ESTJs I guess would be more like warlords whereas Saruman acted more like a Necromancer, breeding minions to do his bidding and corrupting people's will, heart and mind.

Therefore I see INTP (5w4, given that he also wanted to be special) typing also plausible for Saruman.
 
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