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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    Hmm. I'm sure of the I. Watch him and Halle Berry interview each other. (Yes, HB does say he likes to improvise and that he is a naturally funny, off-the-cuff guy, but my gut really says ISXJ.) What say you?
    Well, they do call it "acting" for a reason!

    But in most of his movies, he's an ISTP, such as Die Hard and The Fifth Element. Although in Sin City, he was an ISTJ.

    But I might go as far as saying I'm not so sure he's even a Sensor. But I will say he's definitely an Introvert, because he seems to work really hard at keeping his professional and personal life separate.

  2. #52
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    Beyonce's ISFP. If you've read or watched any of her interviews you can tell she's quiet and is only placed in the spotlight because of her puppetmaster father (ESTJ)?. When Beyonce's on stage, she calls herself Sasha because she's said she's very shy and would it takes a lot of effort for her to perform. If you can, watch Destiny's Child Behind the Music or her MTV Diary. I saw them a while ago, but it's very clear she's an introvert.

    So is Christina Aguliera, btw.
    Beyonce is not an ISFP. She's not an introvert. Yes, she says she has created another character that she names Sasha, but that's more because she's inventive and performing and likes to create new things, not because she's painfully shy. Many ESFPs describe themselves as shy, because they don't trust their "real selves" to be accepted by people and because they have a weakness when it comes to extroverted Feeling, behaving according to accepted social norms. However, Beyonce has sought the stage since she was a young child, putting in (and enjoying) many hours perfecting her stagecraft and technique. She's constantly busy, constantly trying out new ventures. That is NOT introverted behavior at the forefront. Introverts are more likely to carve out a niche, and gradually deepen that niche. So I agree that Christina Aguilera is an introvert, but contrast her behavior with Beyonce's. Christina drops out of the spotlight for significant periods of time and comes back having deepened her persona and interests. She doesn't do a lot of duets and collaborations, she doesn't use other people to deepen her craft (except perhaps other introverts, i.e. music producers). Beyonce is constantly duetting and collaborating with tons of other people (Shakira, Sean Paul, Jay-Z, Luther Vandross, etc.). Christina started out as a typical pop princess with a big voice. Her next incarnation....she took pop princess to the next level, creating music that was meaningful to her ("Beautiful") and reflected who she really is ("Dirty", not a sweet girl). Her latest incarnation...latching on to the retro phase and melding it with her own values and persona. A more mature version of herself.

    Beyonce has gone from being part of a group to being a solo artist (wanting more of the spotlight for herself). She never left the spotlight, in fact, rather aggressively found ways to stay in it (movies! then fashion! recording music in Spanish! I bet a million bucks tv is next). Christina recreates herself by going underground, listening to new sounds, using introverted Feeling to expose who she really is and create artistry with extraverted Sensing. Beyonce uses extraverted Sensing to create opportunities (not artistry), and her Fi makes her unique. I don't think Beyonce has a strong sense of self and what she is about, unlike introverts. Beyonce defines herself by what and who is around her (more ghetto when she's with Jay-Z, pretty princess other times). She's uncomfortable answering questions about herSELF (not her activities but who she is), whereas dominant introverted Feelers have no difficulty with that.

    I've seen Beyonce in many interviews (but not Christina...wonder why one loves being interviewed and the other doesn't). I doubt her father is an ESTJ. He's not a traditionalist, he's an opportunist. That's why other artists seek him out to be their manager and producer. He's single-minded in his pursuit of power and success. That's not ESTJ behavior, ESTJs are more concerned with wholesome and productive activities. Her father is probably an STP or ENTJ. He's no cooperative type (unlike SJs).

    I've known quite a few Beyonce's (two of my best friends, both of my parents - ESFPs). People have this belief that ESFPs must be flighty and silly but they're not, not at all. They're very concerned about making an impression and the impression that they make (unlike ISFPs, who care more about their enjoyment than that of others). But they're usually pretty cool characters, pragmatic, social, able to handle themselves in any situation, compassionate, ambitious.

  3. #53
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyInWaiting View Post
    Beyonce is not an ISFP. She's not an introvert.
    Okay, obviously I haven't looked into Beyonce. I'll be YouTubing her soon.

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    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyInWaiting View Post
    Beyonce is not an ISFP. She's not an introvert. Yes, she says she has created another character that she names Sasha, but that's more because she's inventive and performing and likes to create new things, not because she's painfully shy. Many ESFPs describe themselves as shy, because they don't trust their "real selves" to be accepted by people and because they have a weakness when it comes to extroverted Feeling, behaving according to accepted social norms.
    Check out Beyonce's Driven. I'm basing my typing of Beyonce as ISFP based on what she says about herself. You could speculate that all celebrities are extroverts simply because it takes a fair amount of attention whoring to attain star status. Beyonce has repeatedly said in interviews on top of interviews that she doesn't feel comfortable on stage. What she loves is her music, her artistry, which compels her to perform. She doesn't even refer to herself as an entertainer in the interviews if seen, but as an artist. She keeps talking about expanding her artistry and expressing herself. I agree with you about ESFPs being slightly uncomfortable with their Fe, but their Se more than make up for that. If they see that they aren't making an impact or are unsure of themselves, the Se feed will place them right on track.

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyInWaiting View Post
    However, Beyonce has sought the stage since she was a young child, putting in (and enjoying) many hours perfecting her stagecraft and technique. She's constantly busy, constantly trying out new ventures. That is NOT introverted behavior at the forefront. Introverts are more likely to carve out a niche, and gradually deepen that niche. So I agree that Christina Aguilera is an introvert, but contrast her behavior with Beyonce's. Christina drops out of the spotlight for significant periods of time and comes back having deepened her persona and interests. She doesn't do a lot of duets and collaborations, she doesn't use other people to deepen her craft (except perhaps other introverts, i.e. music producers). Beyonce is constantly duetting and collaborating with tons of other people (Shakira, Sean Paul, Jay-Z, Luther Vandross, etc.).
    How does collaborating with many singers relate to being an introvert? That's the standard in R&B. Beyonce wanted to sing when she was a young, even her parents said they were surprised that she wanted to start a group because she was so quiet and painted all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyInWaiting View Post
    Christina started out as a typical pop princess with a big voice. Her next incarnation....she took pop princess to the next level, creating music that was meaningful to her ("Beautiful") and reflected who she really is ("Dirty", not a sweet girl). Her latest incarnation...latching on to the retro phase and melding it with her own values and persona. A more mature version of herself.
    We can trace the same transformation with Beyonce. Just because Christina has more obvious transformations than Beyonce doesn't mean they're not there. As a hardcore aficionado of celebrity gossip, there are more pics of Christina being carried drunk out of clubs and parties than Beyonce. Any paparazzi pics of Beyonce are of her on the red carpet, with Jay-Z, or her family. Also, all the phases you listed Christina as going through sounds more like something an ESFP would do to keep the attention on themselves. Dirty girl to covered up retro pinup queen. Also compare Beyonce to her Hollywood contemporaries. Lindsey Lohan, Britney Spears, Nicole Ritchie are other ESFPs that have the little mosquitoes flocking after them every time they exhale. They want the spotlight and do everything they can do to stay in it. Beyonce's image is very controlled. Also something I don't see indicative of an ESFP.

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyInWaiting View Post
    Beyonce has gone from being part of a group to being a solo artist (wanting more of the spotlight for herself). She never left the spotlight, in fact, rather aggressively found ways to stay in it (movies! then fashion! recording music in Spanish! I bet a million bucks tv is next). Christina recreates herself by going underground, listening to new sounds, using introverted Feeling to expose who she really is and create artistry with extraverted Sensing.
    I still don't know what this has to do with being an introvert. That's about business, not about being an introvert.

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyInWaiting View Post
    I've seen Beyonce in many interviews (but not Christina...wonder why one loves being interviewed and the other doesn't). I doubt her father is an ESTJ. He's not a traditionalist, he's an opportunist. That's why other artists seek him out to be their manager and producer. He's single-minded in his pursuit of power and success. That's not ESTJ behavior, ESTJs are more concerned with wholesome and productive activities. Her father is probably an STP or ENTJ. He's no cooperative type (unlike SJs).
    OK I'm not sure what type he is.

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyInWaiting View Post
    I've known quite a few Beyonce's (two of my best friends, both of my parents - ESFPs). People have this belief that ESFPs must be flighty and silly but they're not, not at all. They're very concerned about making an impression and the impression that they make (unlike ISFPs, who care more about their enjoyment than that of others). But they're usually pretty cool characters, pragmatic, social, able to handle themselves in any situation, compassionate, ambitious.
    Agreed. I worked with quite a number of SFPs when I was a makeup-artist. I agree that ESFPs get a bad rap as nothing but party animals. Most ESFPs I knew where quite generous with their time and energy and just wanted to make people happy and beautiful. SFPs are creative in ways that I strain to be and I admire them.

    These are some articles describing her persona Sasha. Also in youtube interviews she says that after playing Deana in Dreamgirls, it gave her the courage and permission to be more aggressive in her style and lyrics. Why would an ESFP need persmission to be more aggressive. ISFPs value harmony just as much as an NF. ISFPs are soft like marshmellows.

    Alter Ego 1
    Why she created Sasha

    She said this about herself in this article:

    "I do normal things, walk in the park," she told Parade. "I don't want to be off on my own diva planet. I want to be on Earth. I want to be normal. I think I am past needing celebrity. I don't want to feel the void I see in a lot of celebrities ... the unhappiness underneath the smile."

    Happiness comes from family, friends love and doing positive things, she said. In the future she hopes to have a life beyond the spotlight that she can still find fulfilling.
    I could also start analyzing her lyrics. They have a decidedly Fi slant. She wrote or co-wrote most of her songs on Dangerously in Love (the title even!!) and B-Day. Her Fi runs rampant throughout those albums. She very clearly expresses her feelings and seems quite comfortable with them and defining them. Most ESFP artists put out party songs or songs about playing the game of love. Beyonce's lyrics are about being wrapped up in her feelings of being in love, what love does to her, how it affects, how dirty it can be.

    I get a strong ISFP vibe from her, but since neither of us knows her, all this is conjecture.

  5. #55
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    proteanmix, what say you to, for instance, this interview with Beyonce? She really doesn't strike me as softspoken, vulnerable or people-pleasing enough to be an ISFP (for comparison, check out Christina Aguilera).

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    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    proteanmix, what say you to, for instance, this interview with Beyonce? She really doesn't strike me as softspoken, vulnerable or people-pleasing enough to be an ISFP (for comparison, check out Christina Aguilera).
    I saw the Beyonce interview, and I watched about 5 mins of the Christina interview. There are a couple other Beyonce interviews on youtube, one in particular she talks about how her character in Dreamgirls freed her and gave her permission to be more agressive.

    How would an ESFP handle this versus an ISFP?

    Some ISFP traits from Personality page

    * Keen awareness of their environment
    * Live in the present moment
    * Enjoy a slower pace - they like to take time to savor the present moment
    * Faithful and loyal to people and ideas which are important to them
    * Individualistic, having no desire to lead or follow
    * Take things seriously, although they frequently appear not to
    * Special bond with children and animals
    * Quiet and reserved, except with people they know extremely well
    * Trusting, sensitive, and kind
    * Service-oriented; they're driven to help others
    * Extremely well-developed appreciation for aesthetic beauty
    * Likely to be original and unconventional
    * Hate being confined to strict schedules and regimens
    * Need space and freedom to do things their own way
    * Dislike mundane, routine tasks, but will perform them if necessary

    And ESFP traits:

    * Live in the present moment
    * Are stimulated and excited by new experiences
    * Practical and realistic
    * Warmly interested in people
    * Know how to have a good time, and how to make things fun for others
    * Independent and resourceful
    * Spontaneous - seldom plan ahead
    * Hate structure and routine
    * Dislike theory and long written explanations
    * Feel special bond with children and animals
    * Strongly developed aesthetic appreciation for things
    * Great people skills

    I'm trying not to base this on the ISFPs/ESFPs I know and let Beyonce and Christina speak for themselves. If you watch Christina's and Beyonce's demeanor during the interviews, I don't get extraversion from either one of them.

    Let's take the ISFP "developed appreciation for aesthetic beauty." Christina is constantly on someones worse dressed list for her garish outfits and clownish makeup. Beyonce plays it safer, but is rarely called out for being a steaming hot mess like Christina sometimes is. Beyonce has helped to create her own fashion line and fragrance. LadyinWaiting thinks that these show her trying to stay in the spotlight, but I think it's the appreciation for aesthetic beauty.

    In another Beyonce interview on youtube, she speaks about the spaces in which she feels comfortable. She says that she feel freer when she's singing in church because that's what she's familiar with, what she grew up with. Would it matter very much to an ESFP what their performance space was, as long as it somewhere they can perform?

    I also linked to an article (and I found others but I wanted them to be from credible sources), that says she most comfortable in the country with her shoes, sans makeup with her family than on the red carpet. She's constantly saying how important her family is to her, how even though she's her own person, she enjoys the business relationship she has with her parents.

    So now I'm going to lyrics: In "Me, myself, and I" she writes about making a conscious effort to start living life on her own terms and not anyone elses. She outlines what she's endured for the sake of the relationship, how she trusted this scheming guy over what her instincts told her. "Dangerously in Love" is so Fi'd out it made my stomach churn the first few times I heard it. She wrote that about her relationship with Jay-Z. Listen to her lyrics on her CDs and they're just not outwardly focused. She rolling around in her own emotions, then doing her Se thing not the other way around.

    I'll try to find some good ESFP lyrics that showcases their Fi, for some reason all I can think of is David Lee Roth or something.

  7. #57
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I saw the Beyonce interview, and I watched about 5 mins of the Christina interview.
    What say you to my claim that her observable demeanor in interviews is not softspoken, vulnerable or people-pleasing enough to be an ISFP?

    I appreciate the arguments based on what she says about herself, but I find her actual behavior to be ESFP-ish - including the fact that she seems to like talking about herself.

  8. #58
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    What say you to my claim that her observable demeanor in interviews is not softspoken, vulnerable or people-pleasing enough to be an ISFP?

    I appreciate the arguments based on what she says about herself, but I find her actual behavior to be ESFP-ish - including the fact that she seems to like talking about herself.
    What bothers me about introvert descriptions (and I think introverts should be bothered as well) is that they perpetuate the myth that introverts are shy and can't possibly exude confidence.

    Maybe I'm not seeing what you're seeing, but I think she's very poised and confident, yet a little reserved in her interviews. Her body language is approachable but not necessary saying, "come and talk to me." Extroverts usually have more open body language, even if they're being quiet. It seems a little too rehearsed like she went through media training or something. I don't see her as doing an improvised answer very well, or something that she didn't expect to be asked, which I think extroverts would rebound more quickly from.

    As far as her talking about herself, she's being interviewed. She's a celebrity, she knows that she has to do interviews and that people are going to ask her questions about herself. And she's been doing this since she was a teen so she's probably comfortable in front of the cameras and with people asking her questions. Notice she rarely talks about her relationship with Jay-Z and when Destiny's Child had the first break up, she didn't start talking about that in depth until at least a couple of years after it happened.

    Maybe we should find a good example of an ESFP (not some Hollywood chick in and out of rehab) and compare her and Beyonce. How much is enough soft-spokenness is required to make one an ISFP?

    Here are some articles that may prove or disprove my typing.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  9. #59
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    What bothers me about introvert descriptions (and I think introverts should be bothered as well) is that they perpetuate the myth that introverts are shy and can't possibly exude confidence.
    Maybe I'm reading something into this quote that isn't there, but for the record, I am not basing my reading of Beyonce as an ESFP on descriptions, I am basing it on comparison of the traits I mentioned with the ISFP females I know (which is quite a few) and with Christina Aguilera in interviews. Just for the record.

    Maybe I'm not seeing what you're seeing, but I think she's very poised and confident, yet a little reserved in her interviews. Her body language is approachable but not necessary saying, "come and talk to me." Extroverts usually have more open body language, even if they're being quiet.
    Usually, but not all Extroverts and not in all situations. Also, the more beautiful, the less giving.

    It seems a little too rehearsed like she went through media training or something. I don't see her as doing an improvised answer very well, or something that she didn't expect to be asked, which I think extroverts would rebound more quickly from.
    I hate to say this, but... I don't think Beyonce's had much of an incentive to develop a personality. (Am I being an evil T now? )

    ... Which, incidentally, is a good reason for finding another ESFP. There must be some famous living ESFP females out there who aren't Paris Hilton-esque... Right?

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    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    I hate to say this, but... I don't think Beyonce's had much of an incentive to develop a personality. (Am I being an evil T now? )
    No you're not being evil, sometimes she seems a little vacant to me too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    ... Which, incidentally, is a good reason for finding another ESFP. There must be some famous living ESFP females out there who aren't Paris Hilton-esque... Right?
    I'm going to give my guesses about ESFPs (I think Paris Hilton is an ESFJ, btw). I'm not sure about these, so I probably won't argue my case very much.


    Brittany Murphy
    Sienna Miller
    Ashlee Simpson (although I read her typed as ENFJ)
    Cameron Diaz
    Eva Longoria

    And one more ISFP:
    Janet Jackson
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

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