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  1. #1
    Pubic Enemy #1 Crabs's Avatar
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    Default Facts on Illegal Immigration

    This thread will probably get deleted or moved to the graveyard for not supporting the leftist ideology of the majority in this forum. Facts that don't promote mainstream liberal narratives are usually deemed as hate speech or misinformation in an effort to censor opposing viewpoints, such as Mark Cuckerberg's Fakebook.


  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crabs View Post
    This thread will probably get deleted or moved to the graveyard for not supporting the leftist ideology of the majority in this forum.
    Do you think that an opening statement like this is liable to make this a "self-fulfilling prophecy"?

    Look, I dont share your outlook, I think maybe anticlimatic, searchingforpeace, a few others do, but I'm trying to figure out who is sincere about that and who are engaging in trolling or forum dynamics, anyway, those who agree with you probably will give you a like, maybe read your post, maybe not, but you're reaching no one. Maybe its not your intention to reach anyone or communicate your concerns well and see if they may be shared. If so I question the real purpose of posting in the first place, sure it doesnt take a lot of time out of your day, maybe, but it all adds up to a waste of time.

    Anyway, I hope you're going to think about it, its nothing personal and I'm not playing head games with you here, which I know will be the automatic assumption or conclusion you leap to in all likelihood, just thinking about how the forum interaction or participation could be improved or become a little more interesting.

    If you look back in the posts from yester year, go ahead, click on the furtherest from this page, you'll see topics like this discussed and the posting style was entirely different and, I think, more interesting, maybe you could get some ideas from there, I dont know if you'd be interested in that.

    So far as the topic goes, I think that the issues posed by displaced peoples and dispossession are significant, there's a lot of oppression involved, walling off your space and ignoring it from within the "fortress" isnt a good strategy longer term, I'm not even convinced of it in the shorter term. There are complex issues here that those who usually highlight them are not even scratching the surface of, I dont believe the displacement is being caused purely by economic migrations, although those that are its worth considering why they decide that economic development simply is not going to happen in their part of the world, human trafficking has a lot to do with this, failed states and weak civil societies, racism and similar factors I do believe are at work. Political islam, radicalisation and the threat of crime or terror by refugees is disproportionately focused upon, I dont think that focus is liable to address the underlying issues. Money has a lot to do with it, disruption and the exploitation of displacement (and the bone headed right wing responses to it) are being exploited as a form of irregular warfare, geopolitical weapon.

    So, the analysis of it is way off, its being exploited, again, like any other issue that ought to be addressed properly, for the tennis match between the conventional left and right camps, indeed, if your post's opening line is anything to go by you're really more concerned about these vaguely defined "leftists", and really, you could have written "injuns" for all it matters, or possibly the mods. Its also a topic which I think gets way too much attention, out of all proportion to other issues which I think really deserve the attention of the polis, anywhere really, and so far as the forum goes, well, I'm not sure whether its really a pressing matter at all or not.
    All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.
    Chapter IV, p. 448. - Adam Smith, Book 3, The Wealth of Nations
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  3. #3
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crabs View Post
    This thread will probably get deleted or moved to the graveyard for not supporting the leftist ideology of the majority in this forum. Facts that don't promote mainstream liberal narratives are usually deemed as hate speech or misinformation in an effort to censor opposing viewpoints, such as Mark Cuckerberg's Fakebook.


    I think you mixed things up.
    My country is far to the left from USA and here you can't live as illegal immigrant. Since you will not be able to get any job and you will not have access to healtcare or education system, or be able to buy a property. It is simply impossible to be a illegal immigrant here on the long run.


    While on the other hand America has this problem exactly because it doesn't have too structured government system and thinks that almost everything is ok. Plus America avoids concrete conclusions since they will make someone do something against their will. Or they will be force to do it and that goes against the ideal of the free country.


    Therefore you have made very pro-left argument: More control is evidently needed.
    I am prefectly ok with idea of borders.
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  4. #4
    Pubic Enemy #1 Crabs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    I think you mixed things up.
    My country is far to the left from USA and here you can't live as illegal immigrant. Since you will not be able to get any job and you will not have access to healtcare or education system, or be able to buy a property. It is simply impossible to be a illegal immigrant here on the long run.


    While on the other hand America has this problem exactly because it doesn't have too structured government system and thinks that almost everything is ok. Plus America avoids concrete conclusions since they will make someone do something against their will. Or they will be force to do it and that goes against the ideal of the free country.


    Therefore you have made very pro-left argument: More control is evidently needed.
    I am prefectly ok with idea of borders.
    That's very interesting. The "American left", or at least those who identify as left-leaning, generally support open borders and amnesty, oppose measures that would reduce illegal immigration, oppose a voter ID system that would ensure only citizens are voting in elections and oppose local law-enforcement aiding immigration and customs officers. It's quite common for LE agencies in predominantly liberal jurisdictions to release violent offenders into the community instead of detaining them so that ICE can deport them. The American left would view your country as racist bigots for not allowing illegal immigrants to take your jobs and leach off of the social welfare system. In fact, the left in the US would probably consider your country right-wing by comparison.

  5. #5
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crabs View Post
    That's very interesting. The "American left", or at least those who identify as left-leaning, generally support open borders and amnesty, oppose measures that would reduce illegal immigration, oppose a voter ID system that would ensure only citizens are voting in elections and oppose local law-enforcement aiding immigration and customs officers. It's quite common for LE agencies in predominantly liberal jurisdictions to release violent offenders into the community instead of detaining them so that ICE can't deport them. The American left would view your country as racist bigots for not allowing illegal immigrants to take your jobs and leach off of the social welfare system. In fact, the left in the US would probably consider your country right-wing by comparison.

    Well, the truth is in the eye of the observer. Liberals would generally think that my country is Nazi, white-supremacist Christian hell, while republicans would say we are Communist nation that has huge taxes and doesn't allow economic freedoms. The awkward truth is that from factual prespective the both would be correct but my country isn't really nazi or communist at this point and the key is that these are conclusions that are made on shallow judgement and at face values that ignore local culture and history. While too free trade and international pressures from all sides are probably the main things that are preventing this place from being a "real little heaven", at least by the standards of the local population.


    As I said in the other thread: my part of the world has quite high chance of open anti-globalist revolution. Which is already on the way in a lot of ways, since people are starting to feel like slaves in their own countries. But to be honest I don't think that globalism is fundamantally wrong in every way, howerver the whole idea got lost in open borders, trade deals that make mass poverty, mass propaganda on all channels, values over facts, improvisations regarding the law, bad judgements ... and now we have what we have.
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    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    The Actually True and Provable Facts About Non-Citizen Voting

    Donald Trump Is Wrong — Non-Citizens Don't Vote | Time

    The National Association of Secretaries of State, whose Republican-majority membership includes the chief elections officers of 40 states, said they “are not aware of any evidence that supports the voter fraud claims made by President Trump.”

    Federal law and the law of every state prohibit non-citizens from registering to vote or voting in elections (save for a few municipalities that allow non-citizen residents to vote in local elections). Experts believe that the severity of the penalties for violating these laws serve as a significant deterrent.
    I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it.
    —Mark Twain
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    If you're looking for truth, you won't find it in the alternate reality.

    Do immigrants cost U.S. taxpayers $300 billion annually? | PolitiFact
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  8. #8
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    The Actually True and Provable Facts About Non-Citizen Voting

    Donald Trump Is Wrong — Non-Citizens Don't Vote | Time
    You can show the crazy right fact after fact after fact. As long as Trump is out there running his mouth about MILLIONS of illegals voting, facts make no difference, even when the truth is right in front of them. They'll simply pivot to - look at the left!! and open borders!! and amnesty for all!!l and more of their bullshit.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    maybe you're just an insufferable person and that's why you get in trouble and no one likes you not because of your political beliefs. You don't want to take a look at yourself so you blame your political stance when i can guarantee you it's not that. you just break the rules and are a terrible person.

    for example this post is probably gonna get me infracted but i'm a stupid leftist, but you know what i don't give a fuck so bring it, bitch
    Well, I hear this, been there too, pointing out the obvious.

    If you've got a persecution complex and believe in conspiracies and there's no evidence of it I guess its easy enough to do something to provide yourself with the evidence you need.

    Although, I did make what observations I did and made some remarks on the topic of the OP too, what's your views about illegal immigration Prps? Or do you think it may just be a pretext? Perhaps it serves largely as a pretext for many of those who have sought to bring it into the mainstream of discussion, I know that as long as people are discussing illegal immigration they arent discussing any redesign of distribution of wealth and power, I know that for a fact.
    All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.
    Chapter IV, p. 448. - Adam Smith, Book 3, The Wealth of Nations

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crabs View Post
    That's very interesting. The "American left", or at least those who identify as left-leaning, generally support open borders and amnesty, oppose measures that would reduce illegal immigration, oppose a voter ID system that would ensure only citizens are voting in elections and oppose local law-enforcement aiding immigration and customs officers. It's quite common for LE agencies in predominantly liberal jurisdictions to release violent offenders into the community instead of detaining them so that ICE can deport them. The American left would view your country as racist bigots for not allowing illegal immigrants to take your jobs and leach off of the social welfare system. In fact, the left in the US would probably consider your country right-wing by comparison.
    I know you're about to post citations, supporting evidence etc.

    I just wanted to post that I was looking forward to reading it. I'm glad this thread is about facts and not restating beliefs and values because that's gotten really dull. A little like someone on a street corner scripture thumping. I'm glad you're not doing that though. That would be so bad. So. Bad.
    All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.
    Chapter IV, p. 448. - Adam Smith, Book 3, The Wealth of Nations

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