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  1. #11
    Driving to Wewelsburg Typh0n's Avatar
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    @SolitaryWalker

    I've listened to the video you linked where Neil Howe talks about his concept of generational turnings and I find it really interesting.

    I can't help but wonder if the anti-free speech attitude of millenials (at least some of them) will dissipate if Howe's theory that there will be a reuniting of American culture during the fourth turning, a point where distrust hits an all time low, a phase of the fourth turning which Howe argues we haven't entered yet. He gives as an example of a fourth turning the Great Depression and WW2 eras, which was followed by a "Golden Age" of American culture ( the post WW2 era, which was a first turning). He also says that those being born during a third turning (for example millenials), grow up overprotected, but live part of their adult lives resolving a crisis, and end up as heroes in old age due to having faced a crisis.

    If American society goes through another crisis, such as a war, I wonder if millenials, who have clearly grown up overprotected (myself included) will come out with a different mindset overall. Howe tends to describe first turnings as good periods if I understand him correctly. He says fourth turnings need to happen, comparing them to winter.

    I guess my point being that millenials may give up their scorn for their own culture (Western culture) if they live through a crisis which mandates they take care or defend their part of the world from outside aggression.

    We don't really know what the future holds, but I am not sure the anti-free speech sjws will have their say for long if we are to believe Howe.

  2. #12
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    True free speech requires limitations. The US is an example where there are too few.

  3. #13
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    I can't help but wonder if the anti-free speech attitude of millenials (at least some of them) will dissipate if Howe's theory that there will be a reuniting of American culture during the fourth turning, a point where distrust hits an all time low, a phase of the fourth turning which Howe argues we haven't entered yet. He gives as an example of a fourth turning the Great Depression and WW2 eras, which was followed by a "Golden Age" of American culture ( the post WW2 era, which was a first turning). He also says that those being born during a third turning (for example millenials), grow up overprotected, but live part of their adult lives resolving a crisis, and end up as heroes in old age due to having faced a crisis.
    We're already seeing many of these tendencies in the Millennials today.

    The Cyclical Nature of History | The Art of Manliness

    That is why they are displaying a tendency to enforce social solidarity at the expense of individuality. Likewise, they bear a semblance to the prototypical Hero/Civic generation archetype by obeying their elders, engaging in civic deeds and employing peer pressure tactics to keep their counterparts in line.

    The stage has already been set for this generation to have its "rendezvous with destiny", as FDR put it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    If American society goes through another crisis, such as a war, I wonder if millenials, who have clearly grown up overprotected (myself included) will come out with a different mindset overall. Howe tends to describe first turnings as good periods if I understand him correctly. He says fourth turnings need to happen, comparing them to winter.
    The American society has been undergoing a massive crisis in socio-cultural and politico-economic respects since 2008. A near-apocalyptic event is not a prerequisite for a Fourth Turning.

    I guess my point being that millenials may give up their scorn for their own culture (Western culture) if they live through a crisis which mandates they take care or defend their part of the world from outside aggression. [/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    We don't really know what the future holds, but I am not sure the anti-free speech sjws will have their say for long if we are to believe Howe.
    That's a very interesting question. To be sure, when Millennials grow up, they probably won't care much for the PC fads they are into now. However, I don't think their anti-free speech attitudes will dissipate. If anything, they will calcify.

    In the "The Generations", Strauss and Howe wrote a biography for all Civic generations to be born in the U.S including the Glorious, Republican, G.I and Millennial.

    Generations: The History of America's Future, 1584 to 2069: Neil Howe, William Strauss: 9780688119126: Amazon.com: Books

    One thing they all have in common is that they were all inclined to excoriate their deviant peers. In general, the Civic generations value group cohesion over individuality.

    It's worth noting that the PC fads that most Millennials now espouse were started by Boomers who were all for Free Speech. Yet now, Millennials demand censorship in the interest of enforcing their standards concerning decorousness, propriety and solidarity.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilhow.../#559b8b962de7

    If anything, this is a preview for what's to come in the ensuing decades, which is why I think Mill's insights about the importance of individuality will soon be even more important than they are now.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    In his famous statement, John Stuart Mill noted that such acts of violence in speech occur when the speaker clearly encourages others to take violent action against others. Nonetheless, individuals who are often silenced and censored seldom directly promote such behavior. At the very least, before the act of censoring takes place, the accusers must show that the allegedly inappropriate commentary directly causes harm to others that goes beyond the initial emotional reaction to the statement in question. The burden of proof should always be on the accuser, not on the accused.
    The bolded is clearly untrue, considering white supremacists.
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  5. #15
    Senior Member Lark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    So, the the Marxist-Leninist vanguard party does not reflect Plato's paradigm of statecraft?
    I'm sorry but to be frank that's a little laughable if I'm honest.

    There is no point to this equivocation. Soros' views are left-leaning in the sense that he is in favor of Keynesian economics, lightly enforced borders, multiculturalism and a sundry of other left of center positions. There is nothing dishonest about Soros' choice to proclaim himself as leftist and to cite Popper as the inspiration for his worldview.
    Like it or not I'm not sure that fortress mono-cultural societies can exactly be described as open societies, unless you are being Orwellian about things, I just wasnt sure why Soros came into the conversation and most of the time when it does, along with describing multuralism and internationalism as exclusively "leftist", smacks of "the global menace of jewry" conspiracy nonsense.

    To be honest I think its bizarre to describe anyone who is that wealthy as keynesian or leftist in the first place. Perhaps they have a liberal cultural agenda, that'd be the height of it and I do think legitimate questions arise from people seeking to promote cultural agendas beyond the confines of the state they are residing in or their nation of origin, at least in the first instance, especially if they are using the their monkey to monkey wrench it into existence but that's a different matter.


    In theory, it is possible to construct a non-totalitarian view of Marxism. Yet, in practice, the proponents of such positions get co-oped by the Leninist hardliners.

    Isn't this the lesson we should have learned from Orwell's Homage to Catalonia?

    I am familiar with Luxemburg and other critics of Lenin's interpretation of Marx, yet the reality is that libertarian socialists and other benign leftists have gone the way of the dinosaurs. On the other hand, the centrist positions on both sides of the spectrum that are predicated on a rejection of the Philosopher King thesis have survived.
    I didnt think that was the lesson of homage to catalonia at all, which I thought was a record of opposing fascism to be honest. What you're describing about a non-totalitarian view being co-opted by leninist "hardliners" presumes they are of the same species of idea really, which comes as no surprise given what you've said about Plato and Marxism, which is very ahistorical and free of any context too, but its just bizarre, its like suggesting that if a dog likes to go running one day it will emerge as a horse.

    Centrist positions on both sides of the spectrum that are predictated on rejection of the philosopher ind thesis have survived? Surely that's the opposite of what you have been suggesting? I thought your entire premise was that all which is left wing is merely the latest iteration or incarnation of the philosopher king thesis? Hence the need to adopt this, apparently one sided, idea of starving left wing academia and civil society of resources.
    All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.
    Chapter IV, p. 448. - Adam Smith, Book 3, The Wealth of Nations

    whether or not you credit psychoanalysis itself, the fact remains that we all must, to the greatest extent possible, understand one another's minds as our own; the very survival of humanity has always depended on it. - Open Culture

  6. #16
    Senior Member Lark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bechimo View Post
    The bolded is clearly untrue, considering white supremacists.
    SW is one of the last people I'd actually have expected to be drinking the kool aid but there you go.
    All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.
    Chapter IV, p. 448. - Adam Smith, Book 3, The Wealth of Nations

    whether or not you credit psychoanalysis itself, the fact remains that we all must, to the greatest extent possible, understand one another's minds as our own; the very survival of humanity has always depended on it. - Open Culture

  7. #17
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bechimo View Post
    The bolded is clearly untrue, considering white supremacists.
    It depends on what you mean by White Supremacists. White supremacists believe in the superiority of their race in all essential respects. Richard Spencer would fit the bill, yet I've seen no evidence that he is calling for violence against other races.

    In fact, I invite everyone on this forum to produce a single document or a video where Spencer or other well-known white supremacists directly called for violence against minorities.

    Typically, the PC left assumes that whenever anyone makes a truly racist comment, they intend to deny the minorities' right to exist and they're just one step short of calling for their extermination. Yet, those insinuations ought to be dismissed as a mere hysteria.

    Unless there is conclusive evidence that the White Supremacists speak in "code" that directly leads others to commit "hate crimes", there is no need for any censorship. So far, these allegations appear to be little more than conspiracy theories.

    Again, I am waiting on evidence showing that even the most radical members of the Alt-Right are purveying propaganda that directly leads to violence.

    Additionally, the PC left conflates the actual white supremacists with people who report facts that are offensive to minorities. For example, the SPLC lists Charles Murray as a "White Nationalist". Yet, practically no-one who read his book "What it Means to be a Libertarian: A personal interpretation" can reasonably come to this conclusion.

    What It Means to Be a Libertarian: A Personal Interpretation - Kindle edition by Charles Murray. Politics & Social Sciences Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.

    Not a single section in that book deals with matters of race or the importance of preserving the white identity of the United States. If nothing else, the only reason why Murray and other right-leaning researchers are ever accused of being White Supremacists is that they failed to condemn racism in the strongest possible terms.

    See for yourselves, that's exactly what the concluding paragraph of this piece says.

    The Real Problem with Charles Murray and "The Bell Curve" - Scientific American Blog Network

    In other words, facts don't matter, if you fail to deny the existence of the IQ gap between races, which psychometrists unanimously acknowledge, you're racist.

    If you're racist, you're a white supremacist and if you're a white supremacist, anything you say is a threat to the existence of minorities and you need to be censored.

    Hence, we should all take notes from Stalin and remember that the first person to quit clapping after the Dear Leader's speech goes to the gulag. So, we must only refrain from having impure and politically incorrect thoughts, we must show boundless enthusiasm for all ephemeral PC fads, regardless of how absurd they may be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Survive & Stay Free View Post
    I'm sorry but to be frank that's a little laughable if I'm honest. .
    The parallel is undeniable, which is why you're trying too hard to reject that idea. The Marxist-Leninist vanguard party held Marxism to be a strict science, on par with physics and chemistry. On this basis, they have concluded that the views of the Party Leaders represented the only "correct" way to government. Therefore, all "incorrect ideological positions" were to be excoriated and their perpetrators to be interned in gulags.



    Quote Originally Posted by Survive & Stay Free View Post
    Like it or not I'm not sure that fortress mono-cultural societies can exactly be described as open societies,.
    Soros is in favor of multiculturalism, so he rejects the mono-cultural societies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Survive & Stay Free View Post
    I just wasnt sure why Soros came into the conversation and most of the time when it does, .
    You mentioned that Popper's critique of the Philosopher King thesis indicts all enemies of the open society as "leftists". My response was that the Popperian perspective is compatible with the center-left position, as George Soros has demonstrated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Survive & Stay Free View Post
    along with describing multuralism and internationalism as exclusively "leftist",
    Generally speaking, conservatives are in favor of assimilation rather than multiculturalism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Survive & Stay Free View Post
    smacks of "the global menace of jewry" conspiracy nonsense.
    What?

    Quote Originally Posted by Survive & Stay Free View Post
    To be honest I think its bizarre to describe anyone who is that wealthy as keynesian or leftist in the first place.
    Why is that? FDR was stupendously wealthy for his time, yet his views on political economy were quite Keynesian. The same can be said about LBJ, Nixon, Nelson Rockefeller and his countless associates among the business elites.

    Today, Keynesianism is a popular position among the financial elites in the tech sector as well. What, you think Mark Zuckerberg is a classical liberal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Survive & Stay Free View Post
    Perhaps they have a liberal cultural agenda, that'd be the height of it and I do think legitimate questions arise from people seeking to promote cultural agendas beyond the confines of the state they are residing in or their nation of origin, at least in the first instance, especially if they are using the their monkey to monkey wrench it into existence but that's a different matter.
    Keynesian economics allows the financial elites to achieve regulatory capture. If you believe that your industry should be heavily regulated, you have every opportunity in the world to have your lobbyists warp the regulations in your favor. In some cases, you can even have them write the bill from scratch, as that is what happened with the ACA.




    Quote Originally Posted by Survive & Stay Free View Post
    I didnt think that was the lesson of homage to catalonia at all, which I thought was a record of opposing fascism to be honest.
    You need to re-read it more carefully. A sizable portion of the text deals with how the Leninist hard-liners triumphed over the more tolerant anarcho-communists.


    Quote Originally Posted by Survive & Stay Free View Post
    its like suggesting that if a dog likes to go running one day it will emerge as a horse.
    It's more like saying that in the state of nature, the fittest survive. In a leftist environment, a non-totalitarian socialist is only as likely to make it as a unicorn. On the other hand, the more libertarian positions are compatible with centrist perspectives on both sides of the spectrum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Survive & Stay Free View Post
    Centrist positions on both sides of the spectrum that are predictated on rejection of the philosopher ind thesis have survived? Surely that's the opposite of what you have been suggesting? .
    No, that's exactly what I've been suggesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Survive & Stay Free View Post
    I thought your entire premise was that all which is left wing is merely the latest iteration or incarnation of the philosopher king thesis? .
    The PC left certainly is, yet it would be unfair to say that about the entire Democratic Party, the Labor party of the U.K, the anarcho-syndicates of Catalonia and os on.


    Quote Originally Posted by Survive & Stay Free View Post
    Hence the need to adopt this, apparently one sided, idea of starving left wing academia and civil society of resources.
    Until the PC virus is quarantined, the departments of humanities in academia are not in the position to serve society.

    On the other hand, if we could trust sociologists to offer an ideologically neutral account of various social issues, we wouldn't be having this conversation now.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    It depends on what you mean by White Supremacists. White supremacists believe in the superiority of their race in all essential respects. Richard Spencer would fit the bill, yet I've seen no evidence that he is calling for violence against other races.

    In fact, I invite everyone on this forum to produce a single document or a video where Spencer or other well-known white supremacists directly called for violence against minorities.
    Spencer calls for peaceful ethnic cleansing. Now, explain to me how that's possible without coercion, whether in the form of systemic, physical, verbal and emotional violence.

  9. #19
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bechimo View Post
    Spencer calls for peaceful ethnic cleansing. Now, explain to me how that's possible without coercion, whether in the form of systemic, physical, verbal and emotional violence.
    Sounds like troll bait to me.

    There is no such thing as "peaceful ethnic cleansing", yet he has always stopped short of advocating violence.

    If anything, he is just trying to get a rise out of the hard left and he's doing a good job of that.

    Of course, if he were to be taken seriously, we're supposed to interpret Spencer to mean that people will voluntarily segregate. Yet, that's never going to happen, so he is just trying to "trigger" the PC crowd as much as possible.

    There is no such thing as "emotional violence". You're always going to encounter people who have unpleasant things to say, that's life. On the other hand, if those who believe in ethnic segregation use physical force to achieve their agenda, that's different. However, I am yet to see that happen.

    Instead, we're seeing a massive overreaction from the extremely neurotic elements of the hyper-PC left. Even if you just look at them the wrong way, you're "violently assaulting" them.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    There is no such thing as "peaceful ethnic cleansing"
    Correct. No pass for him. Glad his right hand lawyer friend opted out and Spencer is sucking air for financing and support. Fuck him and his lily white ass.
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