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  1. #151
    Knows the best words asynartetic's Avatar
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    I don't mean to divert attention from what women go through.

    you know, it really depends on the situation too. Sometimes women are very sweet and flirty with me in a nonthreatening manner that, while unexpected, can be very flattering. Other times it's just unsettling and feels like a violation. It's a crapshoot really, and I think that the men and women who engage in this behavior fall into two categories: 1) predators who don't really care about their targets' feelings and 2) awkward or lonely people (in many cases with a low sexual market value) who are awkwardly reaching out to the opposite sex the only way they know how.

    Discerning the difference might be tricky, and when one has spent enough time dealing with the first type, I think it could be easy to have a gut reaction to the second type and assume they're all predators, when some are just clueless, unlucky romantics, maybe. So it could be easier to just enact a wall against all of them.
    The effect of life in society is to complicate and confuse our existence, making us forget who we really are by causing us to become obsessed with what we are not. -Chuang Tzu
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  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by biohazard View Post
    I can't even comphrehend the thousands of times I've been catcalled. It started for me when I was 12. Even had one bus driver, who was a grown ass 50 something yr old man, stop his bus with passengers JUST to try to talk to me.... for fucking 10 MINUTES!!! I was 19 at the time. I literally yelled at him "Hey Ugly Ass Prick, You better keep driving or I'm gonna call your boss on you for holding these people up. I'm 16 LEAVE ME ALONE!!!". I started a whole riot and the bus passengers reported him for not moving and harassing me. I never saw him again.

    I've had one guy follow me for a whole subway ride and yelled all the sexual things he would do to me in Spanish. Some of them were downright herrendous. Telling me he'd drink my urine and shit on my body. Spanish is my first language so you better believe I knew what he was saying. It got so bad that when he came near me, I pulled out my knife and pepper spray. I told him to come closer and DARED him to. This big muscular black guy got between me and him and he defended me and threatened the police on the man. He got escorted off the subway. I was very thankful.

    Like, shit, I know I'm a beautiful woman and that people find me attractive. I'm okay if someone says "Hey beautiful!", I don't mind saying "Thank you". But when you harass me or objectify me in some way, you gonna get Ghetto Ass Biohazard and I WILL embarrass you to the point where other people step in.
    yeah! you said it!
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  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by asynartetic View Post
    I don't mean to divert attention from what women go through.

    you know, it really depends on the situation too. Sometimes women are very sweet and flirty with me in a nonthreatening manner that, while unexpected, can be very flattering. Other times it's just unsettling and feels like a violation. It's a crapshoot really, and I think that the men and women who engage in this behavior fall into two categories: 1) predators who don't really care about their targets' feelings and 2) awkward or lonely people (in many cases with a low sexual market value) who are awkwardly reaching out to the opposite sex the only way they know how.

    Discerning the difference might be tricky, and when one has spent enough time dealing with the first type, I think it could be easy to have a gut reaction to the second type and assume they're all predators, when some are just clueless, unlucky romantics, maybe. So it could be easier to just enact a wall against all of them.
    I understand your point and I think you explain the intentions and values of these people very well. Regardless, I think if a woman or man feels uncomfortable around that person, whether they're an unlucky person or not, that person feeling uncomfortable is still entitled to feel so. 'Cause they're obviously not interested if they are.
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  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    So you don't think there is "an established system of power" where gender is concerned that has survived the (relatively recent) demise of gender-biased laws? If so, that would explain a great deal about your perspective here.
    I don't think there's an established system of power in regard to gender. I think there are established systems of power in regard to gender. Both men and women benefit from some of those systems, and both men and women experience discrimination from some of those systems. However, the systems are more subtle than Jim Crow laws because the systems are mostly not backed by law and aren't directly oppressive or beneficial. Gender dynamics and the way they manifest in and influence society are very complex and can't be viewed in black and white terms, with one gender definitively being the victim and one definitively being the aggressor.

    Catcalling is a type of harassment that, in my opinion, generally has negative consequences on women. It's still not equivalent to Jim Crow. It's much more subtle than that.
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  5. #155
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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  6. #156
    Liberator Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by biohazard View Post
    I don't see the relationship either. Especially when Jim Crow laws limited the rights of a group of people (aka Black Americans). There are no laws limiting the rights of the victims of cat-calling or those predators who cat call. These predatory men come in all ethnic backgrounds and social classes, as we saw. It's also NOT exclusive to men, there are predatory women like this too. And cat-calling does not fall or apply to gender discrimination cause it is not exclusive to one gender. It's moreso about harassment and it's VERY hard to get something like this in court unless the situation escalates to violence, continued stalking, etc where the police themselves can witness it. Or others come forth to defend. The fact that catcallers come from every ethnic group and social class is not surprising, given that it gender based and not racial, ethnic, or class based. Catcalling is a casual manifestation of this historical power imbalance, just as the racial comments I referenced earlier were a casual manifestation of a racial imbalance that also still persists in some forms to this day. If you cannot see the similarity, I'm afraid there isn't much more I can do to explain it.

    The fact that women sometimes catcall men, sometimes sexually harass or even rape men, doesn't negate the overall power dynamic between genders, any more than the fact that some blacks attacked or belittled whites means that the power dynamic there was/is balanced either.

    So yeah, I find that your position misses the current points of the discussion. 🤷🏻bless♀️
    So you see no gender bias in cat calling? Of all humans who get catcalled, what percentage do you think are women vs. men? While some comments (your friendly "hi beautiful") may be respectful and friendly appreciation, much if not most of it derives from a power dynamic in which men feel entitled to access or treat women in certain ways, ways often described as possessive, controlling, objectifying, or simply disrespectful.

    Quote Originally Posted by magpie View Post
    I don't think there's an established system of power in regard to gender. I think there are established systems of power in regard to gender. Both men and women benefit from some of those systems, and both men and women experience discrimination from some of those systems. However, the systems are more subtle than Jim Crow laws because the systems are mostly not backed by law and aren't directly oppressive or beneficial. Gender dynamics and the way they manifest in and influence society are very complex and can't be viewed in black and white terms, with one gender definitively being the victim and one definitively being the aggressor.

    Catcalling is a type of harassment that, in my opinion, generally has negative consequences on women. It's still not equivalent to Jim Crow. It's much more subtle than that.
    "Jim Crow" was an entire system of oppressing blacks. Disrespectful remarks made casually on the street are a very small subset of that. Of course catcalling is not the equivalent of the entire Jim Crow system, just of this small manifestation of it. Both systems were/are based on an attitude of "I don't have to treat you with respect; I'm in charge and get to have what I want."

    Of course the power dynamic between genders is multifaceted. If you think on balance men and women come out even, though, all I can say is I hope that is because it has been your experience and the experience of your friends. In other words, I hope you have been lucky. I have been, too, but I know far more women than men who have come up with the short end of the stick. Laws have finally changed, but implementation lags in may places (e.g. family courts, workplace practices), and ingrained ways of behaving die hard. The woman @asynartetic mentioned that harassed male visitors in the bathroom is just as wrong as any man harassing a woman, but I suspect still in the minority, likely a small minority. We can go on and on about the unfair burdens gender bias places on men, but the one compensation they seem to have relied on historically is access to women when they want it. Better to share life's burdens more evenly.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  7. #157
    Knows the best words asynartetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    "Jim Crow" was an entire system of oppressing blacks. Disrespectful remarks made casually on the street are a very small subset of that. Of course catcalling is not the equivalent of the entire Jim Crow system, just of this small manifestation of it. Both systems were/are based on an attitude of "I don't have to treat you with respect; I'm in charge and get to have what I want."
    You are comparing one situation where there was a large body of laws in place to keep certain discriminations legal and to preserve an imbalance (Jim Crow era laws) with a situation where there are few, if any laws in place (current western world, catcalling).

    Are you saying there is a vast system of laws and policies in place to hold women down and allow behaviors like street harassment to go unpunished and/or rewarded? In regard to the bolded, the overwhelming body of evidence would suggest the opposite is true in 2017 USA, UK, Canada, Australia, et al. I think @magpie is right, there are systems, not one vast system. And those systems vary in how they disadvantage/privilege women and men. Can you look at the gender sentencing gap (even larger than the black-white sentencing gap, btw) and tell me we're living in a society where there's some vast Jim Crow-like code of laws holding women down? Now, it is definitely the case that in regard to street harassment, women are experiencing the majority of the problem. But that doesn't reflect other areas of society, you really have to take a case-by-case approach, not some blunt third wave approach that assumes it's only women experiencing any oppression whilst conveniently dismissing any evidence of male suffering as freak one-off occurances that are not indicative of systemic oppression (despite what data and stats say), or in most cases, simply ignoring or shrugging off said evidence.

    I'm not saying catcallinh should be allowed or excused, just wondering from where you're drawing your conclusions...from the data or from a narrative?
    The effect of life in society is to complicate and confuse our existence, making us forget who we really are by causing us to become obsessed with what we are not. -Chuang Tzu
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  8. #158
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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    For what it's worth I've been catcalled more by women than I've ever catcalled any women in return.

    It's gross, but hardly relevant as a problem in the grand scheme of things. I find the non consensual winter breezes up my bath robe when I'm taking out the trash far more offensive.

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    What is threatening or harassing to a woman is different than what's threatening or harassing to a man. The general evolutionary gender dynamic sets things up so men are biologically in more of a pursuit role and women in an opposite role. Generally speaking, obviously. I'm not claiming there's no individual variance or that current society hasn't removed us from the practices and dynamics of our early uncivilized ancestors. However, a male is physically more threatening to a female than vice versa. Male attention toward women can be very aggressive and uncomfortable. This all contributes to making women view catcalling as harassment. Men who I've spoken to about this say they tend to feel flattered when women catcall them, arguably because they don't perceive it as threatening or overly aggressive, and just get an ego boost instead. I've heard some women say they feel flattered by catcalling as well, but I think across the board it's more likely to feel like harassment to a woman than a man for the reasons I've stated above.
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  10. #160
    Senior Member anticlimatic's Avatar
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