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  1. #1
    Senior Member Babybop's Avatar
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    Default Tough women vs. feminists

    Yes, another feminism thread. It's a complex topic.

    I'm a Midwestern girl. I'm going to community college for criminal justice. I have a conceal carry permit and plan on owning a gun soon. I've never gone clubbing, had a vodka soda, or worn six inch heels, but I have been fishing (catch and release), shooting (target practice), and hiking plenty of times. I would choose nu-metal over the top 40 literally any day. I'm not on instagram or snapchat. Sure, I like cute things and am on the sensitive side, but I think it's fair to say that I am a bit more traditionally "masculine" than the average girl. So when I first asked myself if I should be a feminist, my answer was, "of course." I was tired of being seen as weak because of my gender, so why wouldn't I support a movement that empowers women?

    Since then, I've flip-flopped between liking feminism and hating it. This was not very surprising, as I'm pretty sure I have 4 in my tritype and my entire self-image can change at a moment's notice. I dismissed it as indecisiveness, but recently, I started to notice something that surprised me: a lot of famous "tough women" do not identify as feminists, despite being obviously for female empowerment.

    Take Ronda Rousey for example. If you look at her body, she is literally proof that women are not inherently weak (a favorite argument of anti-feminist men). She even made a statement declaring that her muscular body is not masculine, but "femininely bad-ass as fuck." She also said that she is not the type to want to be taken care of by a man. Despite this, she does not actually identify as a feminist. The same can be said for several strong-willed, outspoken women such as Megyn Kelly (who argued with Erick Erickson over his claim that mothers should not work) and Tomi Lahren. These tough women seem to view feminism as a movement that gives women special treatment, rather than empowering them.

    One thing that these women have in common is that they all believe in working hard instead of having things handed to you (or being a "do-nothing bitch," as Rousey likes to say). It raises the question of whether feminism is really about empowerment. Many feminists choose college majors like women's studies and social work over things like business, journalism, CJ, anything STEM-related, or skipping college altogether and learning a trade. From my perspective, it seems like feminism is becoming more elitist than empowering. Like most social justice movements that are prevalent on sites like Tumblr, it is about knowing the right buzzwords and terminology more than standing out and being an example.

    I have two questions. The first one is for women who think of themselves as tough, badass, masculine, non-traditional, or anything similar: should we be supporting the feminist movement? Is it hurting us or helping us? Do you personally identify as a feminist, anti-feminist, egalitarian, men's rights activist, or something else?

    And, the second, for anti-feminist men: What do you think of the women who can keep up with you? The ones who are self-sufficient, outspoken, hard-working, strong, logical, and can (probably) drink you under the table? Do you respect them? Do you think they are trying to "be men" or simply being themselves? I have been wanting to ask this for a long time because I see a lot of NT men on here bashing feminism, which I find confusing because NT women are the epitome of non-traditional femininity.
    Previous username: EliaBlack
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  2. #2
    Senior Member Ursa's Avatar
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    I don't even know what counts as feminist these days. It's a complete morass of concept now. I just do my own thing and power through the negative people. The vulnerable do worry me, though. What constitutes reasonable empowerment of the vulnerable is an ongoing discussion that I follow.

    A classmate of mine transferred to an ultra-liberal university a few years ago. The type of victim mentality and learned helplessness that her women's studies courses encouraged is stupid as fuck. She came out of that experience with the belief that all men are potential rapists, that society is governed by an all-encompassing Patriarchy and that there is little women can do about it other than protest and carve out safe spaces for themselves. She was a brat who found a way not to take responsibility for herself in that particular variety of feminism.
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    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursa View Post
    I don't even know what counts as feminist these days. It's a complete morass of concept now. I just do my own thing and power through the negative people. The vulnerable do worry me, though. What constitutes reasonable empowerment of the vulnerable is an ongoing discussion that I follow.

    A classmate of mine transferred to an ultra-liberal university a few years ago. The type of victim mentality and learned helplessness that her women's studies courses encouraged is stupid as fuck. She came out of that experience with the belief that all men are potential rapists, that society is governed by an all-encompassing Patriarchy and that there is little women can do about it other than protest and carve out safe spaces for themselves. She was a brat who found a way not to take responsibility for herself in that particular variety of feminism.
    *nods* I stick with - you stay out of my way, I'll stay out of your way and we're good. I don't generally care for "isms", I think labeling is where people go wrong. I do worry about the vulnerable too. This is an 8 thing, I like this tendency in us. That is not the same as victim mentality or people who use that mentality for their own gain.

    I have a daughter on a big university campus and her dad and I, we are like this often. Not so much at her but the overall vibe. My husband is like - it was NOT this way when I went to school here. I didn't experience it where I went either. It was always the place that you learned how to listen to other views and ideas. It's the opposite now. I don't get it.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.
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  4. #4
    Senior Member Smilephantomhive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursa View Post
    I don't even know what counts as feminist these days. It's a complete morass of concept now. I just do my own thing and power through the negative people. The vulnerable do worry me, though. What constitutes reasonable empowerment of the vulnerable is an ongoing discussion that I follow.
    Same.
    Last edited by highlander; 12-29-2016 at 01:28 PM.
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  5. #5
    deplorable basketcase Tellenbach's Avatar
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    My definition of a feminist: someone who supports policies that allows and empowers women to be the best woman they can be. By my definition, the only true feminists are libertarians.
    I don't think the Patterson footage of sasquatch is real because the creature is too fat and land animals are very seldom that fat, us excepted of course.
    I do allow for the possibility that this Bigfoot might be an impulsive eating squatch from Michigan, in which case, the film might actually be genuine.
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    Bird of War Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Batman's a feminist.
    The gloves are off...
    The wisdom teeth fell out...
    What you on about?





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  7. #7
    ornery ornithologist captain curmudgeon's Avatar
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    It really depends how you define 'feminist'. All else on this topic follows from there.
    Jarlaxle: fact checking this thread makes me want to go all INFP on my wrists

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  8. #8
    The Road not Taken Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by captain curmudgeon View Post
    It really depends how you define 'feminist'. All else on this topic follows from there.
    Exactly.

    I use the definition found in most standard dictionaries, which goes something like: "the belief that women and men should have equal rights and opportunities". By such a definition, many of these people who don't define themselves as feminists actually are.

    @EliaBlack: how do you define feminism? Unless you specify some definition as the OP, members may very well be posting at cross-purposes to each other, with much misunderstanding as a result.

    Quote Originally Posted by EliaBlack View Post
    I have two questions. The first one is for women who think of themselves as tough, badass, masculine, non-traditional, or anything similar: should we be supporting the feminist movement? Is it hurting us or helping us? Do you personally identify as a feminist, anti-feminist, egalitarian, men's rights activist, or something else?
    We should be supporting any efforts to promote equal rights and opportunities for both sexes - legally, economically, socially, and otherwise. Since historically more restrictions have been placed on women than on men, much of this effort has focused on freeing women from these restrictions. As such, it has been woman-focused. Continued progress for women, though, requires progress also for men, which requires first and foremost an understanding of how traditional gender bias negatively impacts men as well. Some men don't see it this way, as they don't view the opportunity to teach kindergarten or to stay home with young children as a plus. As long as certain roles remain largely the purvey of one gender, however, (e.g. women have primary responsibility for children), gender equity will be elusive for everyone.

    I identify as feminist, by my definition above. I also identify as egalitarian, and would consider myself a men's rights activitist if that is taken to mean eliminating gender bias as it affects men.
    Our friendship would profit us both alike. Much we could still accomplish together, to heal the disorders of the world. Let us understand one another, and dismiss from thought these lesser folk.
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  9. #9
    King of Dreams Cat Brainz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EliaBlack View Post
    Yes, another feminism thread. It's a complex topic.

    And, the second, for anti-feminist men: What do you think of the women who can keep up with you? The ones who are self-sufficient, outspoken, hard-working, strong, logical, and can (probably) drink you under the table? Do you respect them? Do you think they are trying to "be men" or simply being themselves? I have been wanting to ask this for a long time because I see a lot of NT men on here bashing feminism, which I find confusing because NT women are the epitome of non-traditional femininity.
    As one of those NT men who bashes feminism I admire and have respect for the women in question like yourself and Coriolis as we can relate on many world views without bringing emotions into the equation, I have debated with both of you and find you far more easy to relate to than most women. I dont see you as trying to be men at all as you are still women but with traits that are stereotypicaly "male". Hell just because my computer chair sometimes has dirty clothes on it doesn't mean Im magically going to call it a washing machine or if my dog eats my potato and cheese she doesn't automatically become a human just because she likes human food and shes not trying to be human just doing something that is natural for her.

    The reason why I bash feminism is due to the worse aspects of it such as positive body postivty (Sorry but being 400lbs is not normal and is not something to be lauded as thats like praising a hammer because its rusty everywhere and refuses to work properly, whining about stuff on our lawn that are mild but excusing shit like stoning women who can read and get raped in the Middle East by saying its "cultural". Basically what annoys me is not feminism but that left wing pesduo-intellectual ivory tower cultural Marxist folks who whine all day and cannot even say the make good wine to go with it . Speaking of our lawn on the other hand I suppose the best we can do is try and kill all the weeds in our lawn so we need to address our own problems and try and get full equality between men and women.
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  10. #10
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    I also go with the "equal rights and equal opportunities" definition

    meaning yes, I think that men deserve the same rights as women and vice versa... we're all human beings and in a perfect society there would be no bars to equal treatment... gender, socio-economic status, race or ethnicity. I don't actually consider the people who members on here bitch about as "feminists" to actually be feminists... not sure what label they should have, but removing the equality from the table is not to anyone's best interests
    “71-hour Ahmed was not superstitious. He was substitious, which put him in a minority among humans. He didn't believe in the things everyone believed in but which nevertheless weren't true. He believed instead in the things that were true in which no one else believed.” -Terry Pratchett

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