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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZNP-TBA View Post
    Hillary, Bernie, superdelagates, ad-hoc rules at a convention...

    Your statement of faith above is admirable.
    Intended or unintended, the patronizing is not welcomed. Don't do it again.

    I'd be hard pressed to consider that rigged. The point of super delegates is to allow a system where if a truly negative candidate were to ascend very far through the system, something can be done to mitigate it. I actually completely understand why the DNC has the super delegate system in place, and I am actually 50/50 if it should be allowed or unallowed. I may be an avid Bernie supporter, and strongly oppose and despise Hillary, but it doesn't mean I can't see and understand the purpose of the systems in place. I am VERY angry over it, because Bernie is not a dangerous or negative candidate, and the hope or intention to upsur him using that should he get the popular vote is completely disingenuious. Further, the statement that it's intended use is to upsur grassroots movements, as if all grassroot movements are bad by default. Just because there is intention or desire to use it wrong, doesn't mean it has inherient flaws or is rigged.

    The superdelegate system could potentially have important use this cycle though. With the legal issues Hillary is facing, the superdelegates might be essential to not give her the nomination despite the popular vote. The odds are she will be completely unable to win the general election in the best worst case scenario, the worst worse case is she gets indicted. When a candidate faces legal issues like this, it is very likely the right move to use the super delgate to change the vote. I would say the exact same thing even if I was a huge Hillary supporter and against Bernie. It's kind of ironic really that the purpose and point of super delgates is coming into very realistic practical use.

    I guess you could call it rigged, but rigged has a negative connotation, and the genuine point of superdelegates is not negative. As for convention shadiness, I wouldn't call that rigged either. I call that cheating and system abuse. I suppost claiming rigged or not rigged is a semantical argument, and it's one I don't want to entertain.
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  2. #22
    Privileged Sh!tlord ZNP-TBA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    Intended or unintended, the patronizing is not welcomed. Don't do it again.

    I'd be hard pressed to consider that rigged. The point of super delegates is to allow a system where if a truly negative candidate were to ascend very far through the system, something can be done to mitigate it. I actually completely understand why the DNC has the super delegate system in place, and I am actually 50/50 if it should be allowed or unallowed. I may be an avid Bernie supporter, and strongly oppose and despise Hillary, but it doesn't mean I can't see and understand the purpose of the systems in place. I am VERY angry over it, because Bernie is not a dangerous or negative candidate, and the hope or intention to upsur him using that should he get the popular vote is completely disingenuious. Further, the statement that it's intended use is to upsur grassroots movements, as if all grassroot movements are bad by default. Just because there is intention or desire to use it wrong, doesn't mean it has inherient flaws or is rigged.

    The superdelegate system could potentially have important use this cycle though. With the legal issues Hillary is facing, the superdelegates might be essential to not give her the nomination despite the popular vote. The odds are she will be completely unable to win the general election in the best worst case scenario, the worst worse case is she gets indicted. When a candidate faces legal issues like this, it is very likely the right move to use the super delgate to change the vote. I would say the exact same thing even if I was a huge Hillary supporter and against Bernie. It's kind of ironic really that the purpose and point of super delgates is coming into very realistic practical use.

    I guess you could call it rigged, but rigged has a negative connotation, and the genuine point of superdelegates is not negative. As for convention shadiness, I wouldn't call that rigged either. I call that cheating and system abuse. I suppost claiming rigged or not rigged is a semantical argument, and it's one I don't want to entertain.
    You bring up a lot of interesting points to hash out but I'm actually going to refrain (rarely happens) from this discussion with you. I don't think you would much enjoy engaging with someone like me. I'll respectfully not respond to debatable content with you.
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  3. #23
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    Thoughts?


    I am not American but this sounds familiar since I am from the country that is slowly collapsing towards two party system and the process is heavily under way.
    However the effects of this are quite bad:


    1. Society on "We or them" foundations.
    2. Complete lack of dialogue and constructive thoughs from both sides.
    3. Low number of people who vote
    4. Dirty, unconstructive, and pointless political camgaigns
    5. Permanent status quo climate
    6. Main 2 conglomerates have clear advantage in the terms of money and media
    7. National interests are mostly secondary topics
    8. Most of people who vote are party members that hope that they will get some kind of goverment job once their party wins (incompetency enters the system on big door)
    9. After each change on elections there is large restructuring of people in various positions. (to remove the guys from the other side, regardless of competency)


    Etc.

    So I know the drill.

  4. #24
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urarienev View Post
    But why do you think it's so hard...?
    Money. Vested interests.

    The Republican Party began as an insurgency. Sure, a lot of people were former Whigs, but Republicans began primary as an anti-slavery pro-nationalism party. The Whigs had been strongly divided over slavery.

    One of the reason reform is so hard is fear. Both parties try to create a fear of the other candidate. Once people are in a fear based security mode, they cease to listen much to reason.

    Both parties have primarily used social issues and other wedge issues to confound the public.

    For ex. guns---- Hillary is pushing more gun control, but nothing is really going to happen on this issue. But Hillary creates fear of guns and Republicans, which has historically driven women, particularly single women to vote Democratic. Her very effort will actually push more people to vote against her, thus benefitting the Republicans. But both parties benefit because people vote in the two party system.

    Anortion: once upon a time, the Republicans were the pro abortion party (personal liberty), while the Democrats were divided on this (all the old Southern Democrats). Abortion is more or less not going away and anyone reasonable knows it. It is only the matter of setting reasonable standards (i.e. potentially viable fetuses should have protections at some point). But abortion will still drive both Democrats and Republicans into the two party system.

    I could go on. The wedge issues keep the people from seeing the inequality and the crony capitalism, which is bipartisan today. Inequality has historically been the biggest threat to democracies and republics.

    Voting third party rejects the two party mantra. I would love for Bernie to go Green after he is denied the Democratic nomination. I would vote for him.

    But changing to a two round presidential system would reduce the fear factor.

    Getting rid of winner take all states would help improve the process.

    There are many alternative voting systems, but the Supremes have slowed adoption over protecting minority rights.

    Ultimately, everything is designed to discourage leaving the two party system. But we the people can do it if we band together.....reform is possible.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Archilochus
    The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one.
    And I am not a hedgehog......

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    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" not "blessed are the conflict avoiders.....

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  5. #25
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    What we have is a corporate oligolipoly, and our "establishments" are largely funded by these supposedly delightful capitalist dollar votes. People keep buying what is advertised to them, so the people advertising stay in power. These psychological techniques were actually honed in Nazi Germany (really, not exaggeration, or conspiracy) and have been abused fully by the United States government and big business.

    This equally applies to the right and the left ever since Reagan, and Donald Trump is PART of that establishment, just from the corporate side, I mean Donald Trump is like American Psycho, a less attractive James Spader, 80s bad guy walking. ..and this is the America people think was great? Record homelessness, two recessions, greed, excess, the war on drugs and Donald Trump? Seriously people I cleansed myself of this nonsense with journaling, and art therapy, you really should try it sometime, instead of voting for an aging equivalent of a dumbass, cokehead, preppy heir. Donald Trump is everything that's wrong with the 80s, personified, it's like a sick joke.

    So yeah, establishment politics as usual, and America is so weirdly incestuous and insular that they haven't even awoken to the fact that daily, or. a global scale, they're creeping closer to the equivalent of backwards inbred people the rest of society is embarrassed about...Americans abroad understand Bernie Sanders is no where near "extremist"...but Americans at home think microwaves might steal their thoughts.

  6. #26
    Black Rose Krim13's Avatar
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    Food for thought. Maybe they know it's rigged after all.
    "A life that lives without doing anything is the same as a slow death." - Lelouch Vi Britannia

    Alignment: True Neutral/Chaotic Neutral (Rational Neutral - Rebel Neutral)

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