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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    I just see suicide as giving up, and I'm not ok with that.
    I agree with everything up until this point. I don't agree that suicide is giving up, it's more like getting away (from pain).
    Be afraid of the old, they'll inherit your souls

  2. #22
    Globalist Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wixiw View Post
    I agree with everything up until this point. I don't agree that suicide is giving up, it's more like getting away (from pain).
    Maybe. I'm just thinking of what it would mean for me, if I were to commit suicide.

  3. #23
    fragment Lia_kat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    It is cruel to force someone to live who no longer wants to live.

    The only exception is for those who are mentally ill and can be brought out of that mindset.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Osprey View Post
    I think life is rare and something we have to try to make the most of, somehow. I just see suicide as giving up, and I'm not ok with that.
    I agree that life is precious and we should be grateful but our life is our own. If I decide to commit suicide, that is my decision, not for anyone else to deem "acceptable" or not.
    "..But my dreaming self refuses to be consoled."- M.Atwood
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    Likes Tellenbach liked this post

  4. #24
    Globalist Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by florpoetis View Post
    I agree that life is precious and we should be grateful but our life is our own. If I decide to commit suicide, that is my decision, not for anyone else to deem "acceptable" or not.
    Well, let's assume that we only allow suicide for cases where someone is in the right mind. How do we determine when someone is in the right mind? Mental illness is difficult enough to diagnose as it is.
    Likes fidelia, Raffaella liked this post

  5. #25
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I'm going to come at this from an more abstract angle, questioning a lot of the assumptions that previous posters have made.

    While plenty of people argue that we shouldn't legislate morality, that's pretty much exactly what we do except in the most mundane of cases. Laws against murder are entirely about morality, whereas laws about traffic lights are about common conventions of public safety, for example.

    Therefore the "if it doesn't harm anyone else it should be OK" doesn't quite fly with me. There is more to morality than just not harming people or not being cruel to people. A large part of having a common morality is what binds us together as a community. Those aspects of morality which are considered exceptionally critical get made into laws.

    That said, a case can be made for a more libertarian approach, e.g., with respect to drug laws. The moral cases for and against Prohibition also apply to the War Against Drugs. (I wanted to write "Drug War", but given what's happening with drug cartels in Mexico and the US, that conjured the wrong image). Pointing out the huge black market and large amounts of criminal behavior and loss of life that exist entirely because drugs are illegal is an entirely valid moral argument to not legislate the valid moral view that drug addiction is dangerous and wrong.

    No such argument exists in the case of suicide. The best moral argument for suicide in my opinion is that if someone is terminally ill and in a lot of pain, there is a case for allowing suicide or euthanasia. I am definitely sympathetic to such arguments, having had cases where grandparents who had suffered a severe stroke and could have been put on life support to extend their lives for a couple of months. But they didn't need suicide or euthanasia, they just needed kind hospice-level care to let them live for the few hours they had left. Even terminally ill cancer patients get plenty of pain meds for their last days.

    I think it is important, morally, to have suicide, assisted or not, be illegal. It's a huge barrier to cross to say it's OK. For most people, suicidal thoughts and attempted suicide are huge warning signs, and as @prplchknz points out, such people are usually in a very bad mental state. Their problem isn't that they need to kill themselves, but that they're extremely unhappy, and they need help with that unhappiness/depression.

    It is these kinds of laws, this kind of morality, that indicates what kind of people we are as a society. We value the rights to life and liberty very highly. We value the right to liberty so highly, it is entirely illegal to sell yourself into slavery. By the same reasoning, it should not be legal to kill yourself. Just as we can make moral arguments that maybe it's a little bit OK, in some cases, to allow slavery, we have a very good reason to disallow that: not to restrict the freedom of the individual, but to prevent other people from [i]taking advantage[i/] of that individual's dire predicament. Similarly, we shouldn't allow suicide: not to restrict the freedom of the individual, but to prevent other people from taking advantage of that individual's dire predicament.
    Legislating morality is a slippery slope. Morality is based on subjective considerations, which will be (sometimes very) far from uniform across society, especially one as diverse as the US. I agree overall with @Poki's perspective, of focusing on the cause and effect relationships between actions and their material consequences. Everything should be allowed, unless it can be demonstrated that allowing it will bring harm to others. If that can be demonstrated, only those measures which can be shown to prevent that harm should be implemented. All too often lawmakers pass laws that serve mainly to limit the actions of peaceable folks while doing little to address the harm. They do this so they can look like they are doing something, despite being unwilling or unable to do the difficult work of actually studying, understanding, and addressing the problem. Net result of such laws is simply more lawbreakers.

    That being said, we must now ask: what constitutes harm? Are tax complications a real harm? What about the need to hire extra IRS agents to sort it out, and the increased revenues needed to pay them? But then that creates jobs for those people, which is good. The STD example is more controversial, but leads to a similar analysis. Is it bad to have a sharp increase in STDs? Isn't this just those promiscuous people getting what they deserve? How about the positive effect of reducing world population? And maybe a sharp increase in STDs will stimulate research to develop cures, or at least more effective treatments, as happened with the AIDS epidemic.

    So in the end it all comes down to questions of morality, or at least of what people value. The best laws are based on morality that is so nearly universal, that hardly anyone questions it: "of course it is good to avoid needless loss of life", for instance.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Don't think that's a legitimate worry? Try this on for size. Rich, terminally ill guy is on his deathbed. His physician assisted his (hypothetically legal) suicide. Because the suicide is legal, no one pries too closely, and we never realize that his family bribed the doctor to end his life sooner, so they could all get their inheritance sooner. If the suicide is illegal, then the doctor is much less tempted to agree, and if there is a "suicide" it will be investigated very closely to make sure that it wasn't a murder.
    Making something legal is not the same thing as leaving it unregulated. In the places that currently do allow assisted suicide, I think the person wanting it must be evaluated by multiple physicians, and shown to be in sound mind and to have legitimate reasons such as debilitating terminal illness. This should address abuses like the situation above.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  6. #26
    Senior Member evilrubberduckie's Avatar
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    Yes. Let natural selection take its coarse.You cant help someone if they arent willing to help themselves.
    "Advance, and never halt, for advancing is perfection. Advance and do not fear the thorns in the path, for they draw only corrupt blood."
    -Kahlil Gibran


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  7. #27
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Me Before You: Dear Hollywood, Why Do You Want Me Dead?
    11-year-old wheelchair athlete tells the culture to get over itself


    Dear Hollywood,

    Why do you want me dead?

    Please don’t deny it. The movies you make tell me the truth about what you really think about me.

    Me Before You comes out tomorrow. I’ve never read the book, but my mom told me about it and I read the reviews online. It’s the story of a guy who gets in an accident, and has a spinal cord injury, and has to spend the rest of his life in a wheelchair. A guy you think should want to die because he has to live a life that looks like mine.
    Ella 2

    Well, what’s wrong with a life that looks like mine?

    My mom says this isn’t the first movie where a handicapped person had to die for being paralyzed. There was one called Million Dollar Baby where a woman is a quad and bravely chooses death instead of an imperfect life.

    So I’m asking you again, what’s wrong with my life? Why do you think I should want to die?

    You sit there with your able bodies, and look at people in chairs and think you feel pity for our sad little lives, but the truth is you’re afraid. You don’t want to imagine that you might be one of us one day. You think you can be perfect, and think you’d rather die than have parts that don’t work right.
    ...
    Continued here: Me Before You: Dear Hollywood, Why Do You Want Me Dead? - Culture - Aleteia.org – Worldwide Catholic Network Sharing Faith Resources for those seeking Truth – Aleteia.org
    "You know, with Hitler, the more I learn about that guy, the more I don't care for him."
    Norm MacDonald

  8. #28
    hedonistic ho ;) /DG/'s Avatar
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    What is involuntary suicide?


  9. #29
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by /DG/ View Post
    What is involuntary suicide?

    An accident based on personal carelessness/stupidity. IOW, Darwin's Law in action.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #30
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    An accident based on personal carelessness/stupidity. IOW, Darwin's Law in action.
    You forget the obvious ... non-accidental and involuntary.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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