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  1. #1
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Default Do you think western styled-democracies are a good or bad idea?

    Hi,

    I'm tired so I won't go into the details -
    Essentially, one issue I see with democracy as we have it in the western world is that it gives political power to people who don't necessarily know how to make political decisions or work against the interest of the country's inhabitants ie: people will vote for politicians. The politicians who win elections generally do it on policies which are not necessarily good for the country and its citizens and of course, in many cases these politicians will push for policies which are downright harming their citizens.

    First example that comes to mind is what happened in germany and many other countries where left-wing governments encourages immigration from welfare-loving cultures that has been proven, again and again, to increase crime, rape, increase gov spending and diminish social cohesion because its in the party's interest (aka: they get voters) even when the general population (appart from other migrants from similar cultures) is against it.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
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    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
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  2. #2
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    Everything executed poorly is generally not a good idea.
    Im out, its been fun
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  3. #3
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Hi,

    I'm tired so I won't go into the details -
    Essentially, one issue I see with democracy as we have it in the western world is that it gives political power to people who don't necessarily know how to make political decisions or work against the interest of the country's inhabitants ie: people will vote for politicians. The politicians who win elections generally do it on policies which are not necessarily good for the country and its citizens and of course, in many cases these politicians will push for policies which are downright harming their citizens.

    First example that comes to mind is what happened in germany and many other countries where left-wing governments encourages immigration from welfare-loving cultures that has been proven, again and again, to increase crime, rape, increase gov spending and diminish social cohesion because its in the party's interest (aka: they get voters) even when the general population (appart from other migrants from similar cultures) is against it.
    If the general population is knowingly against it, how did it happen? If it happened in spite of that, are you talking about a democracy at all?

    On one hand it seems like you are suggesting that the problem with democracy is that the people are not actually competent enough to be entrusted with the ability to elect government officials. On the other hand you also seem to be suggesting there is a problem from officials not doing things that actually match popular opinion. Is the problem about officials doing what the people think they want or not doing what they think they want? This isn't clear.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    This is why I am a fan of Swiss model where all major decisions go to the referendums.


    What most of the west has are more or less systems where dictatorships are limited in their time spans.
    Your approval rates can be in the toilet but for some reason you will still be free to run the country until your turn is over.

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    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    I'ts not perfect and there's always room for improvement...but otherwise, to me anyway, it seems like a better system than most in the world.
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

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    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poki View Post
    Everything executed poorly is generally not a good idea.

    Did you mean to say "Poor execution isn't proof that the idea itself was bad/flawed ?" with this ?

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    Privileged Sh!tlord ZNP-TBA's Avatar
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    Democracy could probably be decent or terrible depending on the population.

    The example you brought up with Germany and the left-wingers is good. As more immigrants come in and are granted the right to vote in German politics they will vote in their own interest (Middle Eastern and third-world immigrants tend to have very strong in group preferences and are usually protected by a mote of welfare). Gradually as the native population declines (negative birth rate) and the foreign antithetical population rises ( extremely positive birth rate and open borders) the country will be transformed into something unrecognizable and all within the scope and legitimized through democracy.

    Here in the U.S. the Left has largely lost the intellectual argument ever since their adoration for the Soviet Union collapsed after the atrocities were publicized to the world. So they imported voters via opening up the borders to third world immigrants who come from Left sympathizing countries.

    This is also a good book:


    Thanks for starting an interesting topic @EcK
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    Did you mean to say "Poor execution isn't proof that the idea itself was bad/flawed ?" with this ?
    I didnt mean to say that, but i do believe in that as well.
    Im out, its been fun

  9. #9
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    If the general population is knowingly against it, how did it happen? If it happened in spite of that, are you talking about a democracy at all?

    On one hand it seems like you are suggesting that the problem with democracy is that the people are not actually competent enough to be entrusted with the ability to elect government officials. On the other hand you also seem to be suggesting there is a problem from officials not doing things that actually match popular opinion. Is the problem about officials doing what the people think they want or not doing what they think they want? This isn't clear.
    It's internally consistent.
    ie: people don't vote for everything - they elect officials who then make decisions in the vast majority of cases.
    I'm saying they don't know how to pick the right candidates and that the people who get elected often make decisions which are not in the long term interest of the governed but rather in the interest of their career/party/personal wealth/preferred lobbyists.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  10. #10
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    It's internally consistent.
    ie: people don't vote for everything - they elect officials who then make decisions in the vast majority of cases.
    I'm saying they don't know how to pick the right candidates and that the people who get elected often make decisions which are not in the long term interest of the governed but rather in the interest of their career/party/personal wealth/preferred lobbyists.
    Ah.

    At least to some extent that is undebatable (regardless of what anyone's particular preferred policies are). I suppose much of the debate exists around the severity of the problem and whether or not it passes some threshold that makes it fatal.

    I don't think it's necessarily doomed to be fatally flawed. There could be new means by which the voters are more informed or the incentives of the office holders are made less perverse and the general idea would still have value based on the notion that it would give most people some input while allowing them to go about their lives instead of spending all day on every single administrative problem (because there is a division of labor for that). I think your argument might also be put in reverse by some with a competing opinion; that is to say that the advantage is in having administrators who can make different decisions because they invariable have more salient information than the general masses ever could and it's ultimately for the better.

    But, going back to making improvements, it seems less and less likely that those adjustments would actually come from within the institutional machinery itself. So unfortunately, anyone who's looking for those reforms probably has to put their trust in something very untrustworthy, i.e. a coup, a revolutionary, total state collapse and reformation, etc.

    The other obvious question this raises, however, is what one would do instead. If you have a completely undemocratic system, then you simply having nothing tying the authority's interests to the people at all. If you try to go completely democratic, then it would stand to reason that the ignorance by which voters already make bad choices would be even more damaging because they would control even more.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

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