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  1. #21
    Privileged Sh!tlord ZNP-TBA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    I think i'd actually like that. but i don't like what passes as politics these days. tbh i'd like your anti-american thread and agreed with most of it. but even I as an american have no fucking clue on what to do about these problems because it's like trying to get cats in one place, you get the final one in the room at least 1 or more have run off.
    Americans, at least subconsciously, seem resistant to being collectivized. If that indeed is the case then I find that to be of merit.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZNP-TBA View Post
    Americans, at least subconsciously, seem resistant to being collectivized. If that indeed is the case then I find that to be of merit.
    yeah basically. i was trying to say the chance we have of taking care of the problems is by uniting together against the corrupt system but it's impossible to get everyone to agree or cooperate.

  3. #23
    Privileged Sh!tlord ZNP-TBA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    yeah basically. i was trying to say the chance we have of taking care of the problems is by uniting together against the corrupt system but it's impossible to get everyone to agree or cooperate.
    I don't know if it's impossible. It just requires a bit of nuanced thinking and some taking down of the ideological defense mechanisms. I consider many perspectives and don't enshrine any of them. Doing this allows me to see some of the common ground that's usually engulfed and overwhelmed by ideological stampedes.

    For example there are some really remarkable and important key foundational similarities in Donald Trump's and Bernie Sanders' views. Something you wouldn't expect and the thought of it would piss off the zealots on both sides but it doesn't make it any less true.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudpatrol View Post
    The United States is not a democracy (citizens vote directly on laws). It is a Republic (elected representatives vote on the laws).

    Canada is not a democracy. It is a Constitutional Monarchy.

    Ideally a republic form of government (like the U.S.) would allow for each group, or individual to be represented and included. A law or bill, and especially an amendment to the constitution itself would be extremely difficult to get ratified. The founding fathers purposed = less government and more liberty.

    An idealistic ideation that supposed the parties, special interests, lobbies, and politicians would never get their claws into the written ideology the constitution put forward. This was made on the presumption that like themselves, future elected leaders would be both statesmen and representatives of the people.

    In it's most unhealthy state, the current state is an Oligarchical Corpocracy. Government owned corporations were never meant to be: the treasury, the police, the municipalities, the army, or the appointed legislators.
    But it seems like Canada likes to jump around the notion of whether we are democratic or not without ever really getting any clear answers or replies back. I would hesitate to say if any country is really democratic yet, but yet it's not up to the state to allow us permission or when we get to decide to be.


    Oh, I think parts of Quebec have really tried to be, or could be considered almost most that. There's definitely still awareness seemingly in the general populace and continually involvement in the attempt to at least try and be more democratic. It's one of the only places on the continent that is still, I would guess. Speaking of course, from things I have personally gleamed (like the media, people you speak wherever) i don't think things like these are always all that easy to prove or solve by other means then your own personal parameters.

  5. #25
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post

    The only thinh over 80% of the population agree on is that the EU needs a joint solution and that the other European nations should shoulder a larger part of the burden than they currently do (especially looking at Eastern Europe which is blocking all progress on that front *cough, cough*).
    Yeah but there is also the other side of the story

    1. Placing refugees into the countries where many retirements are bellow 100 Euros isn't that good idea.

    2. Placing refugees into countries where unemployment of young people is around 50% (and only thanks to the mass emigration) also isn't good idea.

    3. Placing refugees into countries where they are unwanted places them in harms way.

    4. Placing refugees into countries where they don't want to be is unrealistic. (just watch how much they struggle to get out of Greece and Turkey)

    5. From what I know the stronger countries in Eastern Europe have accepted thousands upon thousands of refugees from the mess in Ukraine.


    So it really isn't that simple.
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  6. #26
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZNP-TBA View Post
    Americans, at least subconsciously, seem resistant to being collectivized. If that indeed is the case then I find that to be of merit.
    There is an argument to be made about whether or not that individuality is really as individual or chosen as it seems (and not just talking about the US either).

    In the UK, for example, around the 1970's we moved more and more away from the idea of a few patrician elites who wanted to govern the public under an idea of them knowing what was best for them.

    Instead we started to diffuse power to the free market. This started out as a great step forward, except there was a catch. What ended up happening was we created a new version of the elite.

    And this new version had (and still has) a vested interest in what is known as ' serving the public' by giving them what they want. But our wants and interests can be manipulated and there is no greater illusion than convincing people that they are free and individual.

    There is a lot more behind this, machine models of people's self interest through game theory, Edward Bernays ideas of controlling the masses using his uncle's theories through advertising to create ideal consumers etc....

    And then we have the new left, which is moving towards a new version of authoritarianism at the more extreme ends, ironically mirroring the far right parties. The only difference being the aim and motivation.

    And ultimately we lack, or have lost, those who are sincere and who have transformative ideas that can be of benefit to their countries and people.

    But that's just a naive ideology these days, open to abuse, or so game theory tells me.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cellmold View Post
    There is an argument to be made about whether or not that individuality is really as individual or chosen as it seems (and not just talking about the US either).

    In the UK, for example, around the 1970's we moved more and more away from the idea of a few patrician elites who wanted to govern the public under an idea of them knowing what was best for them.

    Instead we started to diffuse power to the free market. This started out as a great step forward, except there was a catch. What ended up happening was we created a new version of the elite.

    And this new version had (and still has) a vested interest in what is known as ' serving the public' by giving them what they want. But our wants and interests can be manipulated and there is no greater illusion than convincing people that they are free and individual.

    There is a lot more behind this, machine models of people's self interest through game theory, Edward Bernays ideas of controlling the masses using his uncle's theories through advertising to create ideal consumers etc....

    And then we have the new left, which is moving towards a new version of authoritarianism at the more extreme ends, ironically mirroring the far right parties. The only difference being the aim and motivation.

    And ultimately we lack, or have lost, those who are sincere and who have transformative ideas that can be of benefit to their countries and people.

    I had pretty much the same thought when I saw that claim. My grandmother had a bad luck that she had to go through the Nazism and Communism and she told me that such systems are basically amateurs in manipulating people when compared with modern advertising industry. This is probably a little bit of exaggeration but it proves a valid point. Not every totalitarian system has to be government based.

  8. #28
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    1. Germany does not have a left-wing government. Not since 2005. It is ruled by a center-right coalition. The head of government is a moderate conservative. The strongest party in parliament (and those with the highest ratings in all surveys) are the ruling conservatives.

    2. In order to vote at municipal elections you have to be an EU citizen, for regional and national elections you need to be a national citizen. It is very hard to obtain citizenship and not very likely that a larger share of the refugees currently hosted will ever become citizens and thus eligible to vote. It is also highly unlikely that an increase in muslim voters would strengthen the ruling conservative party (= the Christian conservative CDU) as the right tend to be more anti-muslim than the left.

    3. How can the government do something that is against the supposed explicit desire of the majority of the people and simultaneously only do it to please the people and gain votes? That doesn't make sense. These two accusations contradict each other. Also, the population is more or less evenly divided on what to think of Merkel's way of handling the crises. There is no clear majority. The only thinh over 80% of the population agree on is that the EU needs a joint solution and that the other European nations should shoulder a larger part of the burden than they currently do (especially looking at Eastern Europe which is blocking all progress on that front *cough, cough*).
    Ultimately it doesn't really matter how a party defines itself.

    Importing a million+ people (with very high birth rates) from incompabible cultures and giving them welfare IS a leftist policy.
    As to the EU not 'following through' I'll remind you that it's German politicians who are pushing this agenda. Other countries are free to disagree.

    Eastern european politicians are not 'blocking all progress on that front ' - if you can even call it progress without a heavy dose of irony - they are disagreeing that it is their duty to subsidize the slow colonization of their country by foreign and incompatible cultures. Which is literally what german 'centrist' policians are saying they want, by the way.
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  9. #29
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    A democratic system requires a well educated citizenry and accountability. The people need to understand the system and believe in it.

    As CP pointed out, the USA was designed as a democratic Republic. It is a very successful model for city states, but struggled to work as they grew (see Rome).

    For the first 100+ years of the US, most voters were not employees. Jefferson envisioned a country of independent farmers and merchants that could devote substantial time to civic matters.

    As America transformed into a corporate economy, more and more voters became salaried employees. The transformation has hurt the society. We have a corporate oligarchy. The few thousand at the very top control the parties, the media, and the corporations. Private sector unions have been mostly killed (by free trade as corporations moved jobs outside the country). Advertising uses psychological levers to push people to buy stuff and change behavior.

    The parties are non responsive to the people, but responsive to billionaires. Congressman spend hours each day acting like telemarketers begging for money.....

    People today are not educated enough to understand. A 8th grade year reading list would be beyond most college seniors today.... and most have no knowledge of history......

    Direct democracy wouldn't work. A truly reformed Republic would. But that require bringing back civic virtues that mostly left with the Baby Boomers....and throwing politicians and bankers in jail.....
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  10. #30
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Western europe is not 'messing things up' they are disagreeing that it is their duty to subsidize the slow colonization of their country by foreign and incompatible cultures. Which is literally what german 'centrist' policians are saying they want, by the way.
    But she said Eastern Europe !?
    Western Europe is or at least was somewhat more open on the issue.



    Btw ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    Yeah but there is also the other side of the story

    1. Placing refugees into the countries where many retirements are bellow 100 Euros isn't that good idea.

    2. Placing refugees into countries where unemployment of young people is around 50% (and only thanks to the mass emigration) also isn't good idea.

    3. Placing refugees into countries where they are unwanted places them in harms way.

    4. Placing refugees into countries where they don't want to be is unrealistic. (just watch how much they struggle to get out of Greece and Turkey)

    5. From what I know the stronger countries in Eastern Europe have accepted thousands upon thousands of refugees from the mess in Ukraine.

    So it really isn't that simple.

    6. Croatian government has fallen today after many months of serious political mess and it seems that there will be emergency elections in September/October. But until then there are no major political decision here.

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