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  1. #11
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    It's internally consistent.
    ie: people don't vote for everything - they elect officials who then make decisions in the vast majority of cases.
    I'm saying they don't know how to pick the right candidates and that the people who get elected often make decisions which are not in the long term interest of the governed but rather in the interest of their career/party/personal wealth/preferred lobbyists.

    True, but this points more to the fact that people need political education than that the system itself is flawed.


    I am actually big fan of idea that for voting right you first have to pass a simple test so that you get the idea about what this is really about. After all today people have to pass various tests for far dumber things than general elections. The way how elections are structured now is clearly counter productive, especially since campaigns are almost devoid of actual political questions and details ragarding them. (what makes them pointless)

  2. #12
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    True, but this points more to the fact that people need political education than that the system itself is flawed.


    I am actually big fan of idea that for voting right you first have to pass a simple test so that you get the idea about what this is really about. After all today people have to pass various tests for far dumber things than general elections. The way how elections are structured now is clearly counter productive, especially since campaigns are almost devoid of actual political questions and details ragarding them. (what makes them pointless)
    Yeah but: communism might be a good idea in theory. But due to human nature it always end up in abuse and massacre. The issue is human nature, ie: in democracies we elect some key politicians, but the way we choose them are based on the way in which we select tribe leaders, it's not adapted to modern society. And these leaders themselves work within a system that allows them to seek their own interest even when its in contradiction to the general interest.

    So I would say the issue is the system, democracy is just not fully compatible with how humans naturally structure themselves and their drives.
    If your shoe doesn't fit you're either going to bust the shoe or fuck up your feet.
    Last edited by EcK; 06-03-2016 at 01:44 PM.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
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    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
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  3. #13
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Yeah but: communism might be a good idea in theory. But due to human nature it always end up in abuse and massacre. The issue is human nature, ie: in democracies we elect governed, but the way we choose them are based on the way in which we select tribe leaders, it's not adapted to modern society. And these leaders themselves work within a system that allows them to seek their own interest even when its in contradiction to the general interest.

    So I would say the issue is the system, democracy is just not fully compatible with how humans naturally structure themselves and their drives.
    If your shoe doesn't fit you're either going to bust the shoe or fuck up your feet.

    But this is my point from the start, it is questionable if what most western countries have can be called real democracy. Especially when compared to Switzerland referendum system.


    On the other hand this means that someone/everybody has to control what political figures do once they are at power. Plus corporations should not be able to donor millions and billions to campaigns, since that makes the whole process pointless. System itself is not that bad as much as histeria in media and donations have to be cut out from the pictures, since they are undemocratic in a way that they FORCE people how to think. What usually ends in a scenario that elections are entertainment for the dumbest and most uneducated part of society that wants to feel impact of some kind.

  4. #14
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    But this is my point from the start, it is questionable if what most western countries have can be called real democracy. Especially when compared to Switzerland referendum system.


    On the other hand this means that someone/everybody has to control what political figures do once they are at power. Plus corporations should not be able to donor millions and billions to campaigns, since that makes the whole process pointless. System itself is not that bad as much as histeria in media and donations have to be cut out from the pictures, since they are undemocratic in a way that they FORCE people how to think. What usually ends in a scenario that elections are entertainment for the dumbest and most uneducated part of society that wants to feel impact of some kind.
    Well modern technology now allows for TRUE democracy. The systems we have in place in Europe or the USA were made this way partly because

    a) it was before mass media which turned politics into an alternative fashion show
    b) it would have been a huge challenge to get people to vote on more than just choosing a few key representatives due to distance and the absence of a good/cost effective way to keep them informed enough for their vote to mean anything.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE
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  5. #15
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    tbh politics bore me, they really do. But at the same time i look at people who claim to know everything about politics, and I'm all like WTF!? how is that even a good idea the only political system i've known has been a democratic one so i can't speak whether if it's better or worse than others because it's all i know. it's like me saying i know what it's like to live in japan or the middle east, I have no clue i can read up on it's current events i can learn about it's culture but i can't know until I'm there for a few years and speaking the language . and I'm not sure if politics actually bore me or if most people use emotional manipulation to get their points across, which annoys me.
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  6. #16
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    1. Germany does not have a left-wing government. Not since 2005. It is ruled by a center-right coalition. The head of government is a moderate conservative. The strongest party in parliament (and those with the highest ratings in all surveys) are the ruling conservatives.

    2. In order to vote at municipal elections you have to be an EU citizen, for regional and national elections you need to be a national citizen. It is very hard to obtain citizenship and not very likely that a larger share of the refugees currently hosted will ever become citizens and thus eligible to vote. It is also highly unlikely that an increase in muslim voters would strengthen the ruling conservative party (= the Christian conservative CDU) as the right tend to be more anti-muslim than the left.

    3. How can the government do something that is against the supposed explicit desire of the majority of the people and simultaneously only do it to please the people and gain votes? That doesn't make sense. These two accusations contradict each other. Also, the population is more or less evenly divided on what to think of Merkel's way of handling the crises. There is no clear majority. The only thinh over 80% of the population agree on is that the EU needs a joint solution and that the other European nations should shoulder a larger part of the burden than they currently do (especially looking at Eastern Europe which is blocking all progress on that front *cough, cough*).
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  7. #17
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Well modern technology now allows for TRUE democracy. The systems we have in place in Europe or the USA were made this way partly because

    a) it was before mass media which turned politics into an alternative fashion show
    b) it would have been a huge challenge to get people to vote on more than just choosing a few key representatives due to distance and the absence of a good/cost effective way to keep them informed enough for their vote to mean anything.

    Exactly. The internet vote will probably replace parliamentary decision making at one point. However I would prefer to keep some kind of government that will sort out the details of those decisions or point out that something is simply undoable/unrealistic under current circumstances. Once people will control their lives to greater extend they will be forced to actually know something about running a country and that will be the end of elections that are designed as circus. Plus this will probably solve a few more social problems as a side effect.

  8. #18
    Senior(ita) Member Cloudpatrol's Avatar
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    The United States is not a democracy (citizens vote directly on laws). It is a Republic (elected representatives vote on the laws).

    Canada is not a democracy. It is a Constitutional Monarchy.

    Ideally a republic form of government (like the U.S.) would allow for each group, or individual to be represented and included. A law or bill, and especially an amendment to the constitution itself would be extremely difficult to get ratified. The founding fathers purposed = less government and more liberty.

    An idealistic ideation that supposed the parties, special interests, lobbies, and politicians would never get their claws into the written ideology the constitution put forward. This was made on the presumption that like themselves, future elected leaders would be both statesmen and representatives of the people.

    In it's most unhealthy state, the current state is an Oligarchical Corpocracy. Government owned corporations were never meant to be: the treasury, the police, the municipalities, the army, or the appointed legislators.

  9. #19
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    tbh politics bore me, they really do. But at the same time i look at people who claim to know everything about politics, and I'm all like WTF!? how is that even a good idea the only political system i've known has been a democratic one so i can't speak whether if it's better or worse than others because it's all i know. it's like me saying i know what it's like to live in japan or the middle east, I have no clue i can read up on it's current events i can learn about it's culture but i can't know until I'm there for a few years and speaking the language . and I'm not sure if politics actually bore me or if most people use emotional manipulation to get their points across, which annoys me.

    Yeah but the trick is that what most people call politics today is basicly BS. Debating how one political figure relates to another over and over again is not real politics.


    Real politics consists of: budgets, disscusing education paradigms, debating foregin policy on facts instead of some random news article/video, convincing people to repair and upgrade infrastracture in the most logical order, organizing goverment in a way that it has all the data it needs, ... etc. While partisan struggle and cults of personality simply aren't real politics and they are usually the signs that there is something wrong with the system.

    Real politics is anything but boring.
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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    Yeah but the trick is that what most people call politics today is basicly BS. Debating how one political figure relates to another over and over again is not real politics.


    Real politics consists of: budgets, disscusing education paradigms, debating foregin policy on facts instead of some random news article/video, convincing people to repair and upgrade infrastracture in the most logical order, organizing goverment in a way that it has all the data it needs, ... etc. While partisan struggle and cults of personality simply aren't real politics and they are usually the signs that there is something wrong with the system.

    Real politics is anything but boring.
    I think i'd actually like that. but i don't like what passes as politics these days. tbh i'd like your anti-american thread and agreed with most of it. but even I as an american have no fucking clue on what to do about these problems because it's like trying to get cats in one place, you get the final one in the room at least 1 or more have run off.

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