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  1. #61
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poki View Post
    Yeah, mistakes WILL happen and we need to realize and fix. Thats not a scape goat to not care, its simply saying, accept a mjstake, fix it, learn, and do your best to not make them. Thats life no matter if you a homeless person or the president.

    I have much respect for those people. They want things to be fixed above all else and to head in the right direction.
    That is why I want people with integrity leading. Mistakes happen. No one is perfect. A person with integrity can admit failure and weakness. They don't need to cover up. They don't need to lie.

    I have no problem with national health insurance. I have a problem that Obama did a huge giveaway to insurance companies, drug companies, and hospital companies, while adding a huge burden to doctors.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Archilochus
    The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one.
    And I am not a hedgehog......

    -------------------

    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" not "blessed are the conflict avoiders.....

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    “Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
    ― George Orwell, 1984
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  2. #62
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    On Reagan, since several posters have recently tried to discount him, I found this older article today. 20 Years After "Tear Down This Wall" - TIME

    Next year will be the 30th anniversary of Reagan's Berlin speech. This article from the 20th anniversary is illustrative of why Reagan was a game changer.

    ...

    His speechwriters had drafted an address intended as much for Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev, with whom Reagan was forging a close relationship, as for the 20,000 people who gathered to hear him speak. In the speech, Reagan would call on Gorbachev to tear down the Berlin Wall, but that language was opposed strongly by Reagan's National Security Council and the State Department, who feared it would be used by hard-liners in the Kremlin to discredit Gorbachev. When the President's entourage arrived in Berlin, Reagan's team was still arguing over the final wording. State and NSC submitted yet another draft of the speech. But in the limousine ride to the Wall, Reagan told his deputy chief of staff, Kenneth Duberstein, that he intended to issue the fateful challenge to Gorbachev. "It's the right thing to do," he said.

    ....

    Two decades later, what can we learn from the epochal events that followed — the fall of the Berlin Wall, the reunification of Germany and the collapse of the Soviet Union? "People were afraid of the consequences of what Reagan would say," George Shultz, Reagan's long-serving Secretary of State, told me over lunch in Berlin last week. "But it turns out he was right." We were sitting in an elegant dining room overlooking the city, in a building that sits on the former border between east and west Berlin. "Saying something like, 'Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall' — that could be perceived as provocative. Things were breaking and were in a lot of flux. At the time some people argued, why stick your finger in [Gorbachev's] nose? But knowing Ronald Reagan as I did, I would have said don't bother. He was going to express his feelings."

    ...

    But listen closely to a recording of it today: the speech sounds as much like an invitation as it does a challenge. "There is one sign the Soviets can make that would be unmistakable, that would advance dramatically the cause of freedom and peace," Reagan says. As he goes on, you hear scattered claps and hollers. "General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization: Come here to this gate!" Reagan says. The crowd starts to erupt. "Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate!" At this point, 20,000 Berliners are cheering Reagan on. In his diary, published last month, Reagan wrote, "I addressed tens & tens of thousands of people — stretching as far as I could see. I got a tremendous reception — interrupted 28 times by cheers."

    ...

    But in hindsight, the "Tear Down this Wall" speech helps explain how the Cold War ended. Unlike many conservatives, Reagan believed that the U.S.-Soviet arms race was not immutable, and that the rivalry between East and West that had defined the Cold War could be defused through diplomacy and persuasion. In Gorbachev, he found a partner with whom he could do business. And in the people of Eastern Europe, including those gathered at the Brandenburg Gate that day in June, he found an audience ready to take history into their hands. On this point, Shultz says, "for anyone who came and looked at the Wall, you couldn't help but say, tear down this wall. That was your instinctive reaction to it. It was just something that shouldn't be there."

    ....

    "President Reagan had the idea that change could happen," Shultz says. "That put him at odds with establishment thinking, which had embraced détente and assumed change would not happen. To them, you had two systems that would go on forever; peaceful coexistence was the objective. Reagan assumed change was possible and I thought so too. Your mindset makes a big difference on this."

    ....

    Shultz went on. "I guess the point I'm making here is that ideas matter a lot, the underlying ideas that stand behind policies. When you don't have ideas, your policies are flip-flopping all over the place. When you do have ideas, you have more consistency. And when you have the right ideas — then you can get somewhere." Reagan had the right ideas.


    On a side note, this same year, a little know loudmouth NYC developer took out a whole page ad to attack Reagan and his foreign policy......
    Quote Originally Posted by Archilochus
    The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one.
    And I am not a hedgehog......

    -------------------

    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" not "blessed are the conflict avoiders.....

    9w8 6w5 4w5 sx/so

    ----------------------

    “Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
    ― George Orwell, 1984

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingforPeace View Post
    On Reagan, since several posters have recently tried to discount him, I found this older article today. 20 Years After "Tear Down This Wall" - TIME

    Next year will be the 30th anniversary of Reagan's Berlin speech. This article from the 20th anniversary is illustrative of why Reagan was a game changer.





    On a side note, this same year, a little know loudmouth NYC developer took out a whole page ad to attack Reagan and his foreign policy......
    I had an emotional attachment to that because I was a child when it happened, and it likely affected my entire world view (I had a creepy early interest in the world news because of my grandfather and great-aunt, respectively a Republican and Democrat, and my aunt actually knew Kennedy and Senator Byrd) ...in fact it likely helped me to have a more balanced objective view of Reagan rather than despising him later when I realized the economic horror he wrought.

    However, to say Reagan is more ethical than Carter, because Reagan was charismatic is kind of absurd. Reagan did some messed up stuff, and while I know - as I have listened to someone quote Reagan on this in a documentary - that Reagan's silly basis for Reaganomics were anecdotal observations of living in the city of Los Angeles, rather than putrid evil, I still don't swallow the Mt.Rushmore Rush Limbaugh view of the Gipper.

  4. #64
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Hell no.

    'good' an 'moral' are all so relative.
    One's person good man is another's man's biggot etc.

    Need I really say more?
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  5. #65
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassa View Post
    I had an emotional attachment to that because I was a child when it happened, and it likely affected my entire world view (I had a creepy early interest in the world news because of my grandfather and great-aunt, respectively a Republican and Democrat, and my aunt actually knew Kennedy and Senator Byrd) ...in fact it likely helped me to have a more balanced objective view of Reagan rather than despising him later when I realized the economic horror he wrought.

    However, to say Reagan is more ethical than Carter, because Reagan was charismatic is kind of absurd. Reagan did some messed up stuff, and while I know - as I have listened to someone quote Reagan on this in a documentary - that Reagan's silly basis for Reaganomics were anecdotal observations of living in the city of Los Angeles, rather than putrid evil, I still don't swallow the Mt.Rushmore Rush Limbaugh view of the Gipper.
    It is whether he was Mr. Evil as opponents like Ted Kennedy said or was he well intended but with a few failed policies. Reagan would be appalled about the anti tax mantra of Republicans today. He raised taxes as governor not long after he took office and was proud the state was fiscally sound .

    Limbaugh and his ilk distorted Reagan's beliefs. Reagan was tough on trade, while the current Republican Party establishment loves trade. Reagan cared about America jobs and communities. He didn't just give away the store like the neoliberals.

    The idea of Reagan in today's Republican Party is far from his reality. Reagan would struggle running for president today with the current landscape.

    Reagan and Tip O'Neal fought over a lot of issues, but they shared many a beer in the evenings and never doubted the other's love of country.

    I lay a ton of blame on the head of Ted Kennedy. His vicious and untruthful attack on Bork was unprecedented and really set a new tone in Washington.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archilochus
    The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one.
    And I am not a hedgehog......

    -------------------

    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" not "blessed are the conflict avoiders.....

    9w8 6w5 4w5 sx/so

    ----------------------

    “Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
    ― George Orwell, 1984
    Likes Thalassa liked this post

  6. #66
    Lord Grumpus Tellenbach's Avatar
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    I'm not sure that Reagan was any more moral than Carter but he was certainly more moral than Clinton and Obama.

    Carter's problem wasn't an ethical one; he just didn't understand economics. For example: he instituted price caps on gasoline making it impossible for oil companies to make gasoline without losing money so the oil companies made less gasoline - hence, the long lines at gas stations. Reagan understood this and fixed it immediately.
    There are 129 million dead trees in California. Governor Moonbeam vetoed legislation to cut down these trees; now there are multiple forest fires that have resulted in many deaths, including 300 missing people. This is why Dems are dangerous; this treehugger refused to cut down even dead trees.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Hell no.

    'good' an 'moral' are all so relative.
    One's person good man is another's man's biggot etc.

    Need I really say more?
    Yes. Much more. Your post is essentially the view passed off by "cool" high school students instead of a coherent adult view of ethics. While there is some truth to this relativity, there is a reason most of the world's religions recognize certain core principles as moral, and it's how the UN works together for global common goals. There are certainly shades of gray, and you may find it comical that I actually believe some truths are self evident, but I can't accept this sort of reasoning as anything other than lazy or apathetic, especially since less savory folks use it as an excuse to be utterly morally bankrupt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellenbach View Post
    I'm not sure that Reagan was any more moral than Carter but he was certainly more moral than Clinton and Obama.

    Carter's problem wasn't an ethical one; he just didn't understand economics. For example: he instituted price caps on gasoline making it impossible for oil companies to make gasoline without losing money so the oil companies made less gasoline - hence, the long lines at gas stations. Reagan understood this and fixed it immediately.
    I think Carter was a phenomenal human being and the economy was actually improving until the energy crisis. I'm not sure if this is so much simply about Carter not understanding economics, but more about the process it requires to genuinely move away from oil dependence. Something we are going to have to deal with, it isn't a problem that is going away because Reagan jumped on it for the meantime.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingforPeace View Post
    I love recycled propaganda, as false today as when it was used before. I recently posted a detailed rebuttal on this on another thread.

    The mentally ill being released was a long running thing long before Reagan. The ACLU and psychiatrists and psychologists pushed to end institutionalization. Many of the mental hospitals were very poorly run.

    In California, deinstituationalization began under Pat Brown. Half of the mentally ill were released before Reagan took office as governor. There was a push for community based treatment with the false promise of medication.

    As president, he just block granted funds to states instead of having a federal mental health system.

    Yes , a lot of homeless were mentally ill, but the blame for it goes to the ACLU, psychiatrists, and psychological who pushed for the changes.

    Reagan was an fundamentally good and honest person. I have spent hours with people who knew him personally.

    During the 80 election, I closely followed it. I had to write a paper on Anderson, but I knew I wanted Reagan and celebrated his win on election night. We all disliked Carter and knew the economy sucked, no matter I was 10 years old.

    I was not the typical tweener or teenager and in addition to normal kids stuff, read extensively on history, politices, etc, reading the full newspaper daily, plus several news magazines, plus watching the nightly news and PBS. I was extremely well informed on issues of politics besides being the all round brilliant young man, which is why adults sought my advice and counsel when I was still not able to drive.

    Reagan was authentic. He was not perfect, but he was never one to change policies on a whim. He believed what he said.

    He was humble. Back when he traveled the country for GE in the 50s, he didn't have a huge entourage, but just a single assistant. I talked with his assistant's widow in a chance meeting a little over a decade ago. She herself had worked in the Reagan administration and knew Reagan personally, but the stories she told of Reagan that she got from her husband were priceless. For 3 hours we talked, with mostly me listening, but not always.

    GE didn't get separate rooms for Reagan and his assistant (they would have done so, but Reagan wouldn't demand better accommodations). Instead there was a rollaway. Reagan insisted that he and his assistant swap beds every single night, no matter that Reagan was the important and famous actor.

    Back then, Reagan wrote and rewrote his speeches extensively. But even aa president, he actively shaped his speeches. His masterful communication was not only because he was an actor, but because he believed everything he said.

    Watching his speeches one can still see his skill, but it almost secondary to how he transformed the country. America was in the dumps under Carter. It was really bad. Everyone knew it, including Carter. Reagan transformed it all.

    And while he built up the military, he was very limited in the use of force. Reagan stood tough in negotiations with the Soviets when all his advisors told him not to do so. Reagan is responsible for the end of the Cold War. Any attempt to say otherwise really doesn’t meet muster. Even my ultra lefty former professor, who had been head of the Society of Historians of American Foreign Relations (aka, an expert), credited Reagan.

    Now, Reagan was wrong on several topics. Immigration reform was a failure. He furthered the process of bank deregulation (but that started under Carter and really ramped up under Clinton).

    But he was a man of principle. He loved the country. He had dignity. He had strength. And he really worked to make America better.

    The neocons only give lip service to Reagan. Truth be told, Bush kicked out all Reagan folks after he took over (including the woman I mentioned). Bush brought in neocons and they have controlled the Republican Party ever since.

    Unlike the idiots like Grover Norquist, Reagan raised taxes. He did not believe in starve the beast or K street. He cared about main street, not Wall Street.

    Reagan will go down in history as a great president, deservedly so....
    Your reasons for disliking Carter don't seem to have improved past age ten, especially since so much of what he introduced influenced issues the Democrats fully embrace today, many covered by Bernie's platform. My aunt loved Carter, and your view of him reminds me of the childish affection I had for Reagan until I was old enough to know better. You're old enough to know better, you seem stuck on two extreme views of Carter and Reagan that were probably the result of your age, via emotional biases.

    In fact, I'll elaborate. I know Carter made mistakes but he was a huge environmental president, as well as a human rights leader. Trying to give the Panama Canal back to Panama is non-interventionism, not weakness. If you saw these values expressed by someone else, you'd likely vote for them. Pulling back from oil dependence isn't even easy peasy now, so give the man a break for attempting it 40 years ago.

    Reagan also made mistakes, and you seem intent on making excuses for his flaws, though I agree you are correct about some of his good points. The Reagan administration corporatized America, though I know it had been building for a while, suddenly there was corporate radio and all measure of nonsense.

    Also, your judging them on their charisma isn't a measure of their morality, goodness or love.

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    There are always options and more potent leaders!


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