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  1. #51
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I actually just disagree with your position. If there was proof, it would be a different story .

    Proof? Her own words are not proof? Interesting....

    You don't believe she has character flaws? You don't believe she regularly lies? You don’t believe she has used her public office for private gain?

    Here is just one example of profiting by abusing her office.... http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us...m-company.html

    Hey, if you want to believe in her, fine. But anyone who really takes a look at her actions and words cannot hope to find anything but dishonesty.

    Lol, she lied to the families of the Benghazi victims, telling them a completely different story than she told her daughter. Pretty pathetic, "oh, it was a YouTube video"

    But, as she says, "What difference does it make?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Archilochus
    The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one.
    And I am not a hedgehog......

    -------------------

    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" not "blessed are the conflict avoiders.....

    9w8 6w5 4w5 sx/so

    ----------------------

    “Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
    ― George Orwell, 1984

  2. #52
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingforPeace View Post
    I could easily present a nice argument for her. There are potential benefits of a Hillary presidency.

    But why should I? She is fundamentally corrupt and dishonest. She has used public office for private gain. She destroys people to cover up her own issues. I don't think she would be a good president and think she is a pretty awful person overall.

    It isn't partisan. I like Bernie a lot and hope he accepts the Green nomination if he can't get the Democratic one. I find Trump to be equally unfit for office as Hillary and presented the case as well, no matter that I could see a lot of positives from a Trump presidency.

    If someone believes in Hillary or Donald and wants to support them, great for them. I just would like them to open their eyes to what type of person they really are. Cardinal Richelieu was a very effective leader for France and an absolutely horrible individual. One can support amoral and immoral people for leadership positions. They may possess superior leadership and competence and thereby be great in spite of their huge character flaws.

    I just don't believe we need to accept scoundrels. When the people at the top are corrupt and dishonest, the rest of the country follows. We went our best and most principled people as leaders, not venal liars.....
    Why should you? Because "what type of person they really are" includes the good as well as the bad, whether concerning Hillary, Trump, Bernie, or anyone else. The fact that one of these three, probably one of the first two, will likely be our next president makes it all the more important for US voters to have as complete a picture as they can.

    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingforPeace View Post
    You don't believe she has character flaws? You don't believe she regularly lies? You don’t believe she has used her public office for private gain?

    Here is just one example of profiting by abusing her office.... http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/24/us...m-company.html

    Hey, if you want to believe in her, fine. But anyone who really takes a look at her actions and words cannot hope to find anything but dishonesty.
    People who have analyzed the presidential debates found Hillary's statements to be honest and accurate about 75% of the time, compared with about one third that for Donald Trump. Obviously 25% is still too much, but the alternative is even worse. We can make similar comparisons regarding traits other than honesty.

    Point is, ALL the candidates have character flaws, have at times lied, and have used their office for personal gain. The American electorate do not have the option this time around of a candidate free of these shortcomings. The only way we can make a reasonable choice is to consider the flaws of every candidate, as well as positive qualities they have to offer. Focusing exclusively on the flaws of one particular candidate is not a balanced way to approach the election.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
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  3. #53
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Why should you? Because "what type of person they really are" includes the good as well as the bad, whether concerning Hillary, Trump, Bernie, or anyone else. The fact that one of these three, probably one of the first two, will likely be our next president makes it all the more important for US voters to have as complete a picture as they can.
    Again, not my job. Go find some Hillary sycophant in the media to give you some puffery.

    The truth is she lacks integrity. She was largely incompetent as Secretary of State. She is not a good politician, as she can't even work to find common ground (hard to do when one's own position is vapor). She flagrantly defies law. She is a tool of whatever interests pay her money.

    On international affairs, she will be much like Bush 43, a neocon, with lots of interventions.

    On domestic affairs, she will do nothing about inequality or the middle class, but continue the neoliberal economic policies of the last 4 presidents. The rich will do great under a Hillary presidency, but the country will be much more of an oligarchy. The middle-class will continue to shrink.

    We should expect an expansion of the surveillance state that has grown since 9/11. She would use it to suppress free speech in the name of protection. And punish her enemies. The rule of law will continue to fail.

    If that sounds good to you, jump on that train. I could spin all that crap to sound better (put in any garbage from GWB to illuminate the Hillary foreign policy), but it would be only spin.

    People who have analyzed the presidential debates found Hillary's statements to be honest and accurate about 75% of the time, compared with about one third that for Donald Trump. Obviously 25% is still too much, but the alternative is even worse. We can make similar comparisons regarding traits other than honesty.
    LOL. That is in debates. She is accomplished at saying little and meaning even less.

    Point is, ALL the candidates have character flaws, have at times lied, and have used their office for personal gain.
    Actually, no. Trump and Bernie have never used their political office for personal profit, for different reasons. Trump of course never has held office. And Bernie has integrity......

    I have zero desire to defend Trump because I find him as flawed as Hillary. I have yet to see any dishonesty from Bernie.

    The American electorate do not have the option this time around of a candidate free of these shortcomings. The only way we can make a reasonable choice is to consider the flaws of every candidate, as well as positive qualities they have to offer. Focusing exclusively on the flaws of one particular candidate is not a balanced way to approach the election.
    Lol, have you not read ZNP-TBA's 6 months of arguments with me regarding Trump? I have barely touched Hillary in comparison.

    A single vote is meaningless overall except to the person casting the vote. I know that so I also know that voting in mostly about me. The vote represents what type of a person I am.

    While there could be a time when I viewed personal integrity less important than other qualities, I see no reason to put it behind anything. It is the core issue. Leadership and competency and compassion are behind it.

    But I view Hillary failing on most all these points, as well as Trump.

    I do hope the Democrats feel the Bern and dump Hillary. If not, I hope Bernie goes Green. If not, I will vote for Stein or Johnson.

    I cannot vote for either Trump or Hillary. Either will rapidly continue our decline......
    Quote Originally Posted by Archilochus
    The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one.
    And I am not a hedgehog......

    -------------------

    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" not "blessed are the conflict avoiders.....

    9w8 6w5 4w5 sx/so

    ----------------------

    “Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
    ― George Orwell, 1984

  4. #54
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    Here is a piece that puts this in perspective regarding integrity:

    Secretary without honor: Voices

    Apologists for Hillary Clinton’s alleged criminal mishandling of classified documents say that it doesn’t matter, that she really did nothing wrong, or nothing significant. But the real question is not so much what she did as how she has responded to being found out.

    .....

    Clinton is the antithesis of that young captain, someone with no honor, little courage and commitment only to her endless ambition. This has nothing to do with gender, party affiliation, ideology or policy. It is a question of character — not just hers, but ours. Electing Clinton would mean abandoning holding people accountable for grievous errors of integrity and responsibility. What we already know about her security infractions should disqualify her for any government position that deals in information critical to mission success, domestic or foreign. But beyond that, her responses to being found out — dismissing its importance, claiming ignorance, blaming others — indict her beyond anything the investigation can reveal. Those elements reveal her character. And the saddest thing is that so many in America seem not to care.
    Read the entire piece for a story of real integrity and courage.

    Nothing I have seen has shown me that either Donald or Hillary have either.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Archilochus
    The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one.
    And I am not a hedgehog......

    -------------------

    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" not "blessed are the conflict avoiders.....

    9w8 6w5 4w5 sx/so

    ----------------------

    “Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
    ― George Orwell, 1984

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingforPeace View Post
    You did.



    Was this not an argument that he was good and moral and his opponent was not? That he how it reads.

    As to your points raised, they are irrelevant to the 1980 election. There is no need to address your list you cribbed off some google search, as much as I could. I don't need to bring up a list of morally questionable decisions by Carter as president.

    Of course, Reagan, who ran a positive, upbeat campaign while Carter ran a negative, attack filled campaign. Reagan called Carter's honesty into question with his very successful rebuttal:



    Carter lost by 10 points. Sunny and warm beats dry and cold any day......
    Yeah I'm sure the homeless and mentally ill who suffered directly from his presidency thought he was really "sunny and warm." I also find your position on Reagan bizarre, given everything you hate about Hillary...Reagan is part of all of that, he's a neoconservative icon. I would take him over Trump or W, but really, it's almost like you are experiencing false memories, or nostalgia for a time in your life that have about zero to do with Reagan and his morality.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Speaking of good and moral, this was interesting.

    Stop Parroting GOP Lies That Hillary Clinton Is Dishonest
    How do you explain an entire section of the paperback version of her memoir disappearing, that was about Honduras, as related to the GOP? MUCH of what is wrong with Hillary, and the Clintons in general have absolutely nothing to do with what the GOP talks about, and a lot more to do with her being much more neoconservative, militaristic, and power hungry than any "progressive"should be.

    She is dishonest. She's flipped on foreign policy once she got into a position of power as Secretary of State, and she is most certainly NOT an "environmental candidate."

    What's disgusting about Hillary is what some tools think makes her "moderate"...you know, taking money from Goldman Sachs and oil companies, and making global decisions leading to the death of countless innocent people - namely individuals she claims to support in the US: LBGT, environmental activists, indigenous people and minorities.

  7. #57
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassa View Post
    Yeah I'm sure the homeless and mentally ill who suffered directly from his presidency thought he was really "sunny and warm." I also find your position on Reagan bizarre, given everything you hate about Hillary...Reagan is part of all of that, he's a neoconservative icon. I would take him over Trump or W, but really, it's almost like you are experiencing false memories, or nostalgia for a time in your life that have about zero to do with Reagan and his morality.
    I love recycled propaganda, as false today as when it was used before. I recently posted a detailed rebuttal on this on another thread.

    The mentally ill being released was a long running thing long before Reagan. The ACLU and psychiatrists and psychologists pushed to end institutionalization. Many of the mental hospitals were very poorly run.

    In California, deinstituationalization began under Pat Brown. Half of the mentally ill were released before Reagan took office as governor. There was a push for community based treatment with the false promise of medication.

    As president, he just block granted funds to states instead of having a federal mental health system.

    Yes , a lot of homeless were mentally ill, but the blame for it goes to the ACLU, psychiatrists, and psychological who pushed for the changes.

    Reagan was an fundamentally good and honest person. I have spent hours with people who knew him personally.

    During the 80 election, I closely followed it. I had to write a paper on Anderson, but I knew I wanted Reagan and celebrated his win on election night. We all disliked Carter and knew the economy sucked, no matter I was 10 years old.

    I was not the typical tweener or teenager and in addition to normal kids stuff, read extensively on history, politices, etc, reading the full newspaper daily, plus several news magazines, plus watching the nightly news and PBS. I was extremely well informed on issues of politics besides being the all round brilliant young man, which is why adults sought my advice and counsel when I was still not able to drive.

    Reagan was authentic. He was not perfect, but he was never one to change policies on a whim. He believed what he said.

    He was humble. Back when he traveled the country for GE in the 50s, he didn't have a huge entourage, but just a single assistant. I talked with his assistant's widow in a chance meeting a little over a decade ago. She herself had worked in the Reagan administration and knew Reagan personally, but the stories she told of Reagan that she got from her husband were priceless. For 3 hours we talked, with mostly me listening, but not always.

    GE didn't get separate rooms for Reagan and his assistant (they would have done so, but Reagan wouldn't demand better accommodations). Instead there was a rollaway. Reagan insisted that he and his assistant swap beds every single night, no matter that Reagan was the important and famous actor.

    Back then, Reagan wrote and rewrote his speeches extensively. But even aa president, he actively shaped his speeches. His masterful communication was not only because he was an actor, but because he believed everything he said.

    Watching his speeches one can still see his skill, but it almost secondary to how he transformed the country. America was in the dumps under Carter. It was really bad. Everyone knew it, including Carter. Reagan transformed it all.

    And while he built up the military, he was very limited in the use of force. Reagan stood tough in negotiations with the Soviets when all his advisors told him not to do so. Reagan is responsible for the end of the Cold War. Any attempt to say otherwise really doesn’t meet muster. Even my ultra lefty former professor, who had been head of the Society of Historians of American Foreign Relations (aka, an expert), credited Reagan.

    Now, Reagan was wrong on several topics. Immigration reform was a failure. He furthered the process of bank deregulation (but that started under Carter and really ramped up under Clinton).

    But he was a man of principle. He loved the country. He had dignity. He had strength. And he really worked to make America better.

    The neocons only give lip service to Reagan. Truth be told, Bush kicked out all Reagan folks after he took over (including the woman I mentioned). Bush brought in neocons and they have controlled the Republican Party ever since.

    Unlike the idiots like Grover Norquist, Reagan raised taxes. He did not believe in starve the beast or K street. He cared about main street, not Wall Street.

    Reagan will go down in history as a great president, deservedly so....
    Quote Originally Posted by Archilochus
    The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one.
    And I am not a hedgehog......

    -------------------

    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" not "blessed are the conflict avoiders.....

    9w8 6w5 4w5 sx/so

    ----------------------

    “Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
    ― George Orwell, 1984
    Likes Poki liked this post

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingforPeace View Post
    I love recycled propaganda, as false today as when it was used before. I recently posted a detailed rebuttal on this on another thread.

    The mentally ill being released was a long running thing long before Reagan. The ACLU and psychiatrists and psychologists pushed to end institutionalization. Many of the mental hospitals were very poorly run.

    In California, deinstituationalization began under Pat Brown. Half of the mentally ill were released before Reagan took office as governor. There was a push for community based treatment with the false promise of medication.

    As president, he just block granted funds to states instead of having a federal mental health system.

    Yes , a lot of homeless were mentally ill, but the blame for it goes to the ACLU, psychiatrists, and psychological who pushed for the changes.

    Reagan was an fundamentally good and honest person. I have spent hours with people who knew him personally.

    During the 80 election, I closely followed it. I had to write a paper on Anderson, but I knew I wanted Reagan and celebrated his win on election night. We all disliked Carter and knew the economy sucked, no matter I was 10 years old.

    I was not the typical tweener or teenager and in addition to normal kids stuff, read extensively on history, politices, etc, reading the full newspaper daily, plus several news magazines, plus watching the nightly news and PBS. I was extremely well informed on issues of politics besides being the all round brilliant young man, which is why adults sought my advice and counsel when I was still not able to drive.

    Reagan was authentic. He was not perfect, but he was never one to change policies on a whim. He believed what he said.

    He was humble. Back when he traveled the country for GE in the 50s, he didn't have a huge entourage, but just a single assistant. I talked with his assistant's widow in a chance meeting a little over a decade ago. She herself had worked in the Reagan administration and knew Reagan personally, but the stories she told of Reagan that she got from her husband were priceless. For 3 hours we talked, with mostly me listening, but not always.

    GE didn't get separate rooms for Reagan and his assistant (they would have done so, but Reagan wouldn't demand better accommodations). Instead there was a rollaway. Reagan insisted that he and his assistant swap beds every single night, no matter that Reagan was the important and famous actor.

    Back then, Reagan wrote and rewrote his speeches extensively. But even aa president, he actively shaped his speeches. His masterful communication was not only because he was an actor, but because he believed everything he said.

    Watching his speeches one can still see his skill, but it almost secondary to how he transformed the country. America was in the dumps under Carter. It was really bad. Everyone knew it, including Carter. Reagan transformed it all.

    And while he built up the military, he was very limited in the use of force. Reagan stood tough in negotiations with the Soviets when all his advisors told him not to do so. Reagan is responsible for the end of the Cold War. Any attempt to say otherwise really doesn’t meet muster. Even my ultra lefty former professor, who had been head of the Society of Historians of American Foreign Relations (aka, an expert), credited Reagan.

    Now, Reagan was wrong on several topics. Immigration reform was a failure. He furthered the process of bank deregulation (but that started under Carter and really ramped up under Clinton).

    But he was a man of principle. He loved the country. He had dignity. He had strength. And he really worked to make America better.

    The neocons only give lip service to Reagan. Truth be told, Bush kicked out all Reagan folks after he took over (including the woman I mentioned). Bush brought in neocons and they have controlled the Republican Party ever since.

    Unlike the idiots like Grover Norquist, Reagan raised taxes. He did not believe in starve the beast or K street. He cared about main street, not Wall Street.

    Reagan will go down in history as a great president, deservedly so....
    The mentally ill and homeless is a perfect example of direct conflict of cause. I did a google search and its interesting. The articles that support he did not do it provide a very detailed step by step of what happened. The articles that blamed reagan was very vague and not very detailed. Granted i only check a dozen or so. Checked articles, forums, the commentary below the articles.
    Im out, its been fun
    Likes SearchingforPeace liked this post

  9. #59
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poki View Post
    The mentally ill and homeless is a perfect example of direct conflict of cause. I did a google search and its interesting. The articles that support he did not do it provide a very detailed step by step of what happened. The articles that blamed reagan was very vague and not very detailed. Granted i only check a dozen or so. Checked articles, forums, the commentary below the articles.
    Pretty much.

    I had never personally researched the issue until last week when someone else raised the attack, but it always seemed "off". After reading up, it is clear that Reagan just got blamed and partisans just recycled the attack for decades.

    Could Reagan have brought back institutionalization? Only if he fought the psychiatrists and psychologists and the ACLU. Some policies only get fully realized as failures after they are implemented.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Archilochus
    The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one.
    And I am not a hedgehog......

    -------------------

    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" not "blessed are the conflict avoiders.....

    9w8 6w5 4w5 sx/so

    ----------------------

    “Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
    ― George Orwell, 1984

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingforPeace View Post
    Pretty much.

    I had never personally researched the issue until last week when someone else raised the attack, but it always seemed "off". After reading up, it is clear that Reagan just got blamed and partisans just recycled the attack for decades.

    Could Reagan have brought back institutionalization? Only if he fought the psychiatrists and psychologists and the ACLU. Some policies only get fully realized as failures after they are implemented.....
    Yeah, mistakes WILL happen and we need to realize and fix. Thats not a scape goat to not care, its simply saying, accept a mjstake, fix it, learn, and do your best to not make them. Thats life no matter if you a homeless person or the president.

    I have much respect for those people. They want things to be fixed above all else and to head in the right direction.
    Im out, its been fun

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