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  1. #11
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingforPeace View Post
    How did he he ever show he was more moral than Reagan? That is the statement you made but isn’t supported by history.

    Sure Carter's choices post presidency were far better than Bill's disastrous choices, but just because he spent 30 years seeking redemption does not make him a more moral person than Reagan.

    Jimmy didn't fail as president for being moral. He failed because he was naive and the Democratic Party apparatus in Washington was obscenely powerful in the post Watergate era.....

    He didn't lose the 80 election for being moral. He lost it for being incompetent......
    Who said he did? You are arguing against a position that so far, no one has taken.

    As for Carter, positions that one might equate with morality include his emphasis on human rights, work to reduce nuclear arsenals, and promotion of domestic energy supply and conservation, both for environmental reasons and to increase our independence from OPEC. Remember: I am highlighting these for their moral basis, not their effectiveness, implementation, appropriateness in time, etc.

    Carter's morality comes out even more in what he did not do. Contrast with the following from Reagan's watch:
    • Misled American people about the seriousness of the Soviet threat in an effort to provide an external enemy for propaganda purposes
    • Supported Islamic fundamentalists in Afghanistan as a hedge against the USSR, groups that continue to plague us and our allies today
    • Gave tacit approval to Pakistan's developing nuclear weapons, again in exchange for support of our Afghan policy
    • Promoted an environment in which political opponents were branded "un-American", another legacy which remains to this day
    • The whole Iran-Contra scandal - the most significant scandal since Watergate, revealing the extent to which Reagan expected to conduct "an imperial presidency" that could ignore the law and avoid accountability via coverups. By comparison, Clinton gave us an ill-advised dalliance with an intern.

    Add to this that Reagan served as an informant to the FBI on Hollywood colleagues during the McCarthy era, and the fact that he was divorced. The latter is no big deal now, but used to be a negative for high profile politicians.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...
    Likes Thalassa liked this post

  2. #12
    hedonistic ho ;) /DG/'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    I don't know that it's much more than effective PR, anymore.
    Has it ever been anything otherwise?

  3. #13
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by /DG/ View Post
    Has it ever been anything otherwise?
    No, not even George Washington, to be honest. He was the most "presidential" choice.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.
    Likes ZNP-TBA liked this post

  4. #14
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Who said he did? You are arguing against a position that so far, no one has taken.
    You did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    If the US electorate had wanted a good and moral president, they would have re-elected Jimmy Carter.
    Was this not an argument that he was good and moral and his opponent was not? That he how it reads.

    As to your points raised, they are irrelevant to the 1980 election. There is no need to address your list you cribbed off some google search, as much as I could. I don't need to bring up a list of morally questionable decisions by Carter as president.

    Of course, Reagan, who ran a positive, upbeat campaign while Carter ran a negative, attack filled campaign. Reagan called Carter's honesty into question with his very successful rebuttal:



    Carter lost by 10 points. Sunny and warm beats dry and cold any day......
    Quote Originally Posted by Archilochus
    The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one.
    And I am not a hedgehog......

    -------------------

    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" not "blessed are the conflict avoiders.....

    9w8 6w5 4w5 sx/so

    ----------------------

    “Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
    ― George Orwell, 1984

  5. #15
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    No, not even George Washington, to be honest. He was the most "presidential" choice.
    Washington was a man of utmost integrity, a reputation more than justified.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archilochus
    The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one.
    And I am not a hedgehog......

    -------------------

    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" not "blessed are the conflict avoiders.....

    9w8 6w5 4w5 sx/so

    ----------------------

    “Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
    ― George Orwell, 1984

  6. #16
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingforPeace View Post
    Washington was a man of utmost integrity, a reputation more than justified.
    He was the most presidential choice of all the choices and yes that was PR. No one questioned his integrity, myself included.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  7. #17
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    Being a moral/ethical president, or even person means nothing. What matters is if being a moral/ethical person leads to good productive actions and treatment of others. It's very possible (even common) for a moral and or ethical person to do very immoral and unethical things.
    Likes Cloudpatrol, ZNP-TBA liked this post

  8. #18
    The Bat Man highlander's Avatar
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    Speaking of good and moral, this was interesting.

    Stop Parroting GOP Lies That Hillary Clinton Is Dishonest

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

    Tri-type 639

  9. #19
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Speaking of good and moral, this was interesting.

    Stop Parroting GOP Lies That Hillary Clinton Is Dishonest
    Lol. Silly. Maybe they never heard Hillary did numerous things as Secretary of State to benefit Clinton Foundation donors.

    Or lied repeatedly about her venal corruption in Arkansas (including stealing the Rose Law Firm records to hide that she was heavily involved in a failed S&L.)

    Or when she lied about Travelgate ( illegally getting FBI files to destroy people's careers so she could bring in a crony from Arkansas)....

    Or that sniper fire in Yugoslavia.....except there is beautiful footage of her doing a meet and great on the tarmac.....

    And there are her lies on Benghazi and her email.......

    And I could list many more off the top of my head.

    There are very few outside of Hillary supporters that would call her honest...... and most Hillary supporters accept her struggles with honesty... ..
    Quote Originally Posted by Archilochus
    The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one.
    And I am not a hedgehog......

    -------------------

    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" not "blessed are the conflict avoiders.....

    9w8 6w5 4w5 sx/so

    ----------------------

    “Orthodoxy means not thinking--not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”
    ― George Orwell, 1984
    Likes ZNP-TBA liked this post

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingforPeace View Post
    Lol. Silly. Maybe they never heard Hillary did numerous things as Secretary of State to benefit Clinton Foundation donors.

    Or lied repeatedly about her venal corruption in Arkansas (including stealing the Rose Law Firm records to hide that she was heavily involved in a failed S&L.)

    Or when she lied about Travelgate ( illegally getting FBI files to destroy people's careers so she could bring in a crony from Arkansas)....

    Or that sniper fire in Yugoslavia.....except there is beautiful footage of her doing a meet and great on the tarmac.....

    And there are her lies on Benghazi and her email.......

    And I could list many more off the top of my head.

    There are very few outside of Hillary supporters that would call her honest...... and most Hillary supporters accept her struggles with honesty... ..
    I think the point is - one's character as a politician has a Venn diagram quality to it.

    Great character won't get you a win, necessarily. Not so great character won't get you a loss, necessarily.

    Character doesn't make the candidate but it doesn't destroy them either. Not when other matters such as policy, and other traits such as experience and competence are valued and overlap in leadership positions.

    Where do the voters draw their subjective line? This is what every voter has to answer for themselves.

    The character of a politician is counter-balanced against an opposing or alternative. One which may be a different kind of subjective moral dilemma.
    Likes Cloudpatrol, ZNP-TBA, Lethe liked this post

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