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  1. #41
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I think you're maybe being charitable towards the mother, the point about other adults intervening is an interesting one, I can think of lots of reasons why they wouldnt, fear of how the parents or other adults will perceive it is among the greatest but there is a growing tendency of basic hard heartedness and "none of my business" kind of bystander behaviour.

    Like I remember a mate of mine who was angry about parents taking a brood of children to a bar he was in and then ignoring the same children who ran wild, bumping into other patrons tables and spilling drinks, when the parents gave one of them an expensive portable DVD player and they proceeded to fight over it and then break it in two he laughed really loudly and I got the feeling wouldnt have been bothered if there'd been trouble with the parents in question. I thought that was mean and its not in keeping with his character, definitely not anymore since he has kids of his own now, but there's a lot of people who feel that way about others, strangers, and dont mind how cruel natural consequences of poor life choices are. In fact revel in it. Its a sort of heartless conservatism or libertarianism I see becoming more popular in the english speaking world at least.
    Even on the internet, people are saying "That kid deserves to die, darwinism" as if the kid could possibly know the very real danger involved. Even if the mom was a shit mom (and I don't think we have any evidence to suggest that) the kid still has a right to, ya know, not die at the hands of a gorilla.

    I am empathetic towards the mom because the reality is while the mother has ultimate responsibility... it is fucking hard watching ONE kid, more less multiple kids. I've watched over kids in my younger years and all the way through adulthood. None of them my own, all treated as my own though. And you really do rely a LOT on kids making good decisions at young ages. You really hope it's just that they drew with a marker on the wall and not that they decided to draw on their eyeballs. You really hope that the moment your back isn't turned they go do something stupid. It's difficult to be hyper vigilant ALL the time. It's exhausting. You won't be a good parent that way. You'll burn out.

    My nephew has made joking "Im gonna do this!" all the time. And he never actually went and did it 90% of the time. Sometimes something minor, yes. but "I'm going to go drive the car!" "NO you are not. You don't go anywhere near that car without an adult." usually actually works. I could literally hear my own nephew saying he wants to go sit with the gorilla, and me saying fuck no, and assuming he isn't going to actually be able to do that in any way, shape, or form.

    Like I said, atmosphere makes a difference. With this not really being an issue before (I.E. that zoo has not been in the news in the past 10+ years for anything really that I can recall being national news) and thousands and thousands of people a day going through without issue.. you don't think it will be. You really just don't think that the zoo's enclosures are subpar. Even if they are, they might not look it to someone unawares because there is a precedence for safety as evidenced by the fact no other kids have gotten into a gorilla cage yet. I don't see any reason for the mother to be thinking that there is anything so weak that the moment her back is turned to deal with another child the kid can just... Get in.

    If this was like the edge of a cliff, or something pretty effin' obvious like that, sure. There is a known precedence for "you can fall from cliffs" and "you can drown in pools". But there really isn't much for "zoos". They aren't even in the top 10 for "dangerous places for kids". They're kind of advertised as the opposite.
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  2. #42
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punderstorm View Post
    Why didn't they tranquilize him instead of killing him?
    The kid had already been dragged in water after falling 12 feet in the air for around 10 minutes. Tranqs are not instant, and being hit with a tranq might (probably, given it was already really trying to hold onto the child) have made the gorilla angry and feeling backed into a corner, it might have tried to protect the kid further... but it's treating the kid like a gorilla baby and not a fragile human child, and gorillas are a lot stronger than human children even in infancy. Squeezing an arm might have permanently damaged it, pulling it up into a tree might have made a sleepy gorilla with a kid capable of falling.. there were a lot of what-ifs there.. and most of them were not good.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    It is no brainer really:

    1. ZOO made a mistake with how they designed their infrastructure
    2. Child made a mistake by taking a pointless risk/adventure
    3. Parents made a mistake by not watching what is going on.
    4. Gorilla clearly did the "wrong" thing


    This simply had to end with tragedy of some sort.
    unfortunately.. Too many bad things all aligning at once. It happens.. doesn't mean there isn't anything all aspects could do (though I would add "see something say something" for bystanders who didn't feel any responsibility for child safety here as #5) to improve on anything.. but a lot of stars aligned for this tragedy.
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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Even on the internet, people are saying "That kid deserves to die, darwinism" as if the kid could possibly know the very real danger involved. Even if the mom was a shit mom (and I don't think we have any evidence to suggest that) the kid still has a right to, ya know, not die at the hands of a gorilla.

    I am empathetic towards the mom because the reality is while the mother has ultimate responsibility... it is fucking hard watching ONE kid, more less multiple kids. I've watched over kids in my younger years and all the way through adulthood. None of them my own, all treated as my own though. And you really do rely a LOT on kids making good decisions at young ages. You really hope it's just that they drew with a marker on the wall and not that they decided to draw on their eyeballs. You really hope that the moment your back isn't turned they go do something stupid. It's difficult to be hyper vigilant ALL the time. It's exhausting. You won't be a good parent that way. You'll burn out.

    My nephew has made joking "Im gonna do this!" all the time. And he never actually went and did it 90% of the time. Sometimes something minor, yes. but "I'm going to go drive the car!" "NO you are not. You don't go anywhere near that car without an adult." usually actually works. I could literally hear my own nephew saying he wants to go sit with the gorilla, and me saying fuck no, and assuming he isn't going to actually be able to do that in any way, shape, or form.

    Like I said, atmosphere makes a difference. With this not really being an issue before (I.E. that zoo has not been in the news in the past 10+ years for anything really that I can recall being national news) and thousands and thousands of people a day going through without issue.. you don't think it will be. You really just don't think that the zoo's enclosures are subpar. Even if they are, they might not look it to someone unawares because there is a precedence for safety as evidenced by the fact no other kids have gotten into a gorilla cage yet. I don't see any reason for the mother to be thinking that there is anything so weak that the moment her back is turned to deal with another child the kid can just... Get in.

    If this was like the edge of a cliff, or something pretty effin' obvious like that, sure. There is a known precedence for "you can fall from cliffs" and "you can drown in pools". But there really isn't much for "zoos". They aren't even in the top 10 for "dangerous places for kids". They're kind of advertised as the opposite.
    I can commend your empathy, although sometimes when you're empathising with others you attribute the same sorts of motives, thinking etc. to them that you possess yourself and that can be a mistake.

    Just as big a mistake as believing that everyone is lousy is believing that everyone is great and just let down by their circumstances, the present moment, the built environment or whatever.

    My two cents, anyway.

  5. #45
    Digital ambition Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    unfortunately.. Too many bad things all aligning at once. It happens.. doesn't mean there isn't anything all aspects could do (though I would add "see something say something" for bystanders who didn't feel any responsibility for child safety here as #5) to improve on anything.. but a lot of stars aligned for this tragedy.

    Yes, but the problem is that ZOO itself made a potential for this to happen. They should have cut this is foundation.


    To be honest I was thinking about this long long before this incident since in my local ZOO it is possible to do exactly the same thing with half of animals. They can't go out but you can get in without too much problem. (not to mention that you can simply push someone in)

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Mask View Post
    A preliminary thought as to what one could be:

    1. Have multiple entrances and exits into and from the enclosure, for ease of zookeeper access and for ease of pulling shit under the noses of the animals. .
    Just creates more risks and procedural/security elements the staff need to enact, in terms of monitoring multiple entrances, and also increases risk of animal escaping out.

    I can sum up my feelings on the entire situation with: BLEH.

    I think ultimately the right decision was made, I mean, it might have been a gamble to wait it out. Or maybe not, we'll never know. However I'll be honest, it angers me that we live in a world where lawsuits are the norm, where people don't step in for fear of lawsuit, where a zoo might be blamed for not making a 100% airtight bubble, where people expect to go anywhere, really, without feeling a need to be aware of their surroundings and who think everything safety wise 'should' be taken care of by someone else. I cringe at the thought of the various ancient ruins and natural areas around the world (walls, castles, cliffs) being sealed in high metal fencing or giant glass walls because the sites aren't keeping visitors safe from their own lack of accountability and dumbness. Ultimately accountability falls on the parent and adults imo, and the adults that were there will probably be haunted with that for the rest of their lives. (and yeah, mistakes happen and no one is 100% on top of things all the time)
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  7. #47
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    I don't like the idea of zoos because I think animals are happier in the wild. Wild refuge sanctuaries for injured animals are fine, but they should be released once the animal is healthy.

    In this incident, the zoo is at fault, specifically the architectural designer of the gorilla enclosure. The negligent parent(s) will probably sue the zoo.

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  8. #48
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    People are going to be outraged any way this story could have been cut.

    I mean, would it have been better for that gorilla to tear that boy to shreds while onlookers just gazed on?

    My jaw dropped when watching that video. The second that gorilla starts DRAGGING that young CHILD by a limb- I mean, at that point it would have been not even a question any more.

    Gorilla or child?

    A few more drags like that, and the question gets a very sad answer imo.
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  9. #49
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I can commend your empathy, although sometimes when you're empathising with others you attribute the same sorts of motives, thinking etc. to them that you possess yourself and that can be a mistake.

    Just as big a mistake as believing that everyone is lousy is believing that everyone is great and just let down by their circumstances, the present moment, the built environment or whatever.

    My two cents, anyway.
    Mothers in particular are damned if they do, damned if they don't. Mothers are frequently criticized lately for being helicopter moms.. pushing into every facet of the kid's life, and being overly protective. Either we don't do enough as female parents, or we do too much. There's no winning with motherhood in the eyes of the public. In this case, I don't see much evidence of her being a negligent parent. And people want to tie her to a stake and burn her as one.

    Your example is one I see frequently too unfortunately... but really? This doesn't seem to be a case of that. It's not that these kids are little savages with parents that couldn't care less as long as someone else is dealing with them. And even if it was... it's still a kid's life in danger.

    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    Yes, but the problem is that ZOO itself made a potential for this to happen. They should have cut this is foundation.


    To be honest I was thinking about this long long before this incident since in my local ZOO it is possible to do exactly the same thing with half of animals. They can't go out but you can get in without too much problem. (not to mention that you can simply push someone in)
    I agree. It was the first part of my post for a good reason. You have to protect both your animals and your patrons. Nothing would have happened even if the mom was shit if the foundation of the enclosure wasn't such garbage that a small kid can easily slither into it.
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