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Thread: Harambe

  1. #31
    this call is bein taped asynartetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    Reminds me of when I was a Guardian Ad Litem for the state.

    Whenever there was an animal abuse case there would be protesters. The courtroom would be full.

    In a different courtroom, the custody hearing of a man who physically abused his son was going on. No one there.

    It's not a judgement. More an observation. I remember when that picture of the dead Syrian boy washed up on the beach. I'm hearing a lot more about this gorilla.

    I don't know. Not saying they are related, that you can't care about both - more that there is a public discrepancy in both.

    I find it interesting psychologically, that when an animal is hurt it is easier to rally around the defense of it. Mainly because animals are a blank slate for all of our softness and vulnerability.

    When it is a human, we assign blame and want to look away because it reflects our darkest behaviors, not our softest ones.

    Just a thought.
    There is some truth here in what you say, and I can see why it is frustrating to see people show more sympathy when an animal dies, but I think it is also a natural reaction people feel regarding animals, due to some sense that they are innocents subject to primal instincts. Obviously the Syrian boy was an innocent as well and not responsible for what happened to him, but I think it's just some setting that activates in (some) humans' brains when they see animals getting a raw deal that makes them more upset than seeing it happen to human animals.

    FYI, I do remember the picture of the dead Syrian boy and I found it far more disturbing than this gorilla's death.

  2. #32
    Wallflower power! Punderstorm's Avatar
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    Why didn't they tranquilize him instead of killing him?
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  3. #33
    Damn American Cowboy Reborn Relic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punderstorm View Post
    Why didn't they tranquilize him instead of killing him?

    From what I've heard, the tranquilizer would've taken some time to actually kick in, and they wanted to minimize the amount of time the kid was in there with the gorilla as a threat to him. Also that it might provoke the gorilla further before it kicked in.

    That said, I feel like food-coaxing could probably have done a bit better. Most animals tend to move towards food and focus a lot on it. :p
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  4. #34
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Why not tranquilizer- Because it doesn't work right away and often makes the animal more aggressive before they pass out.

    Why not food coaxing- They did food coaxing, that's why he was the only gorilla in the enclosure. All the female gorillas had been food-coaxed out. He didn't respond. As one actual animal expert I read put it, "What better treat for a captive animal than a real live kid!"
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Why not tranquilizer- Because it doesn't work right away and often makes the animal more aggressive before they pass out.

    Why not food coaxing- They did food coaxing, that's why he was the only gorilla in the enclosure. All the female gorillas had been food-coaxed out. He didn't respond. As one actual animal expert I read put it, "What better treat for a captive animal than a real live kid!"
    Ach, sucks then.

    Hopefully eventually research and funding can make the system work better, but I unfortunately don't have the time or access to resources to do much about that. I have heard some of the zookeepers suggest that the tension and anxiety of the situation had some role to play in this for the gorilla, so maybe that's a potential avenue they're going to want to work towards, but really the solution might just lie in developing a better tranquilizer.

    I can accept that the zookeepers were defending a kid, and that's at worst a morally neutral act, so...yeah. :/ Most interested in fixing it so it doesn't happen again honestly. :/
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  6. #36
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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  7. #37
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    You can be upset about Harambe and the reason why he was in captivity in the first place. People who have spent money to ensure that the parents are legally punished are myopic and possibly ignorant to the issues.

    However, when an endangered animal is in captivity, the expectation is for this animal to flourish and to mate. To survive, at the very least. One can recognize that the cost of this accident was very, very high and also understand that Lowland Gorillas are born in captivity because we hunt them and use their homes for ourselves. This, of course, means that we would have to address issues of survival and poverty for communities and villagers who are hunting animals that we deem endangered or those who have made a business of hunting safari's or poaching.

    You have groups of people who rely on certain animals as a food source or a way to bring in money, people who may already be struggling to feed their families. Environmental groups have come up with many possible solutions in order to stop the killings but as long as there is a tourist willing to buy an ashtray made from x animal, hunting nearly extinct animals will remain a business. The government's main focus shouldn't be on protecting Gorillas when their people are living in poverty. It's a complicated issue, one that is connected to many businesses and communities. Donating time and money is great but ultimately, most who take issue are already guilty of attempting to change the rules in a foreign land full of people who have their own way of life. In the future, we could possibly find a solution that both protects endangered species and upholds native communities.

    This is why animals who are kept in captivity are so important and why Harambe's death should be upsetting. It doesn't take away from the child or the efforts to stop the destruction of nature.

    A lot of this information tends to be on the outside of the exhibit, btw.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Yeah, it usually doesn't happen because the kids basically decide to listen to their parents that moment. Kids decide to just not listen all the time though for less severe things. A kid can decide they don't want to wear their seat belt without their parent knowing about it after buckling the kid in. Most of the time it doesn't mean anything at all--until it does.

    Like I said, there were a ton of witnesses and no one, not one person, grabbed that kid and pulled it off of the exhibit prior to the 12 foot fall in. Everyone saw what that kid was doing, and what it said. No one stepped in at all. They just stood back and watched it happen. So. No. I don't expect the mom to be a super mom. And I DO expect adults to like..I dunno. Do a thing? And intervene for safety of children? But they didn't. So I don't know why this mom is being hyper focused on. I'm like 100000x positive she wasn't thinking her kid would ACTUALLY climb in with a gorilla.
    I think you're maybe being charitable towards the mother, the point about other adults intervening is an interesting one, I can think of lots of reasons why they wouldnt, fear of how the parents or other adults will perceive it is among the greatest but there is a growing tendency of basic hard heartedness and "none of my business" kind of bystander behaviour.

    Like I remember a mate of mine who was angry about parents taking a brood of children to a bar he was in and then ignoring the same children who ran wild, bumping into other patrons tables and spilling drinks, when the parents gave one of them an expensive portable DVD player and they proceeded to fight over it and then break it in two he laughed really loudly and I got the feeling wouldnt have been bothered if there'd been trouble with the parents in question. I thought that was mean and its not in keeping with his character, definitely not anymore since he has kids of his own now, but there's a lot of people who feel that way about others, strangers, and dont mind how cruel natural consequences of poor life choices are. In fact revel in it. Its a sort of heartless conservatism or libertarianism I see becoming more popular in the english speaking world at least.

  9. #39
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    I thought this too, from the beginning. But I totally get why no one did. Most people are fearful of touching a kid that's not theirs - any number of misunderstandings, possibly ending in allegations and arrest - are possible. I know that sounds far out but it happens all the time, even when someone is trying to help.
    Yeah, I get that to an extent.. I know it's easy for me to say I'd do something if I were a bystander... but people aren't exactly reporting that "Hey, I told the mom like 5 times the kid went towards the exhibit!" or "I physically blocked the way for the kid to go towards it and told it it's mom said no" either. I just think it's disgusting people would venture to say "Hey that kid told the mom it was going to do that!" as if the mom should take that as a cue but yet they have zero responsibility in the situation.

    Though, I've always been in the mindset that it takes a village to raise a child.. the reality is mom has ultimate responsibility for her child, but you're a shit adult if you saw something and didn't say something.
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  10. #40
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punderstorm View Post
    Why didn't they tranquilize him instead of killing him?
    Seriously? It's not instantaneous, he could have killed that kid in seconds. Shooting him was the only option and I'm 100% sure no one wanted to carry out.
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