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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomb1 View Post
    maybe he said it, maybe he didn't....i wasn't there. either way, his parents didn't build the exhibit...so I don't blame them for its lousy construction.
    Others who were present report that he did say it.

    The lack of security around the Gorilla exhibit just serves as another reason to take extra precaution. There are plenty of people who somehow managed not to climb over the wall.
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  2. #12
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    If a kid breaks into your security, it's shit security. I definitely hold the zoo accountable for that much of it. Nothing should be climbable for a child under the age of 10 in such a dangerous territory as a gorilla exhibit.

    Parents don't think zoos are dangerous. Parents don't generally go to a zoo and think, "can my kid climb up this and be eaten by a bear?" No. They think millions of people have been here and nothing has been reported in, like, ever. And that its a safe place for their family. That's why they go to zoos.

    Also, all those "standbyers" that WATCHED the kid climb the fucking thing and did jack shit about it don't have any right to go tattle telling all about what the kid threatened to do and then did. The mother had several children she was attending to, like a lot of parents, it wasn't just that one kid with her devoted attention.

    I don't want to see a gorilla killed. No one does. Especially not the zoo keepers. They spent time, energy, and probably a lot of thankless love hours caring for that animal. They get paid shit because they're doing what they love to do. But at the end of the day, between a human (baby that doesn't know better no less) life and an animal life, you're pretty much a monster for going with the gorilla. Sorry, but you are. I cannot and never will understand how people can circle-jerk about animal lives as if they take priority over one's own species. I loooooove animals... I devoted a fair amount of time to them as a kid, and growing up we cared and loved for many animals people literally threw out of their homes... but if a dog ever violently attacked my kid, I'd put that dog down. Our family was very sad to put one dog down that had too much violent acts in him to be near kids, and there are laws against hiding that shit for a reason. I love dogs a lot, but it isn't worth ignoring an obvious bad thing at the expense of losing one's kid potentially.

    The reality is? People think they'd be stellar hyper vigilant parents and this would never happen to them. and they're fucking wrong. Bad things happen to kids all the time even with good parenting. Children get sexually assaulted by people their parents thought they could trust. Children get hit by cars while their parents are being good drivers.

    You are not an awesome outstanding parent of the year that has a perfect track record because it doesn't exist. Put your "I would" hypothetical what-ifs to the side. They mean jackshit and don't count for anything. Most adults I know have at least one or two stories about how they were badly injured, in serious danger, or nearly killed as kids or teens. Sometimes without them even knowing it until later in life. If that was my kid, I'd be damn glad my kid was alive, even at the expense of a gorilla. And Gorillas fucking rock.
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomb1 View Post
    so you think it's the parent's fault he fell in
    I dont think that you can hold a child responsible for their behaviour when they're so small and dependent.
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    If a kid breaks into your security, it's shit security. I definitely hold the zoo accountable for that much of it. Nothing should be climbable for a child under the age of 10 in such a dangerous territory as a gorilla exhibit.

    Parents don't think zoos are dangerous. Parents don't generally go to a zoo and think, "can my kid climb up this and be eaten by a bear?" No. They think millions of people have been here and nothing has been reported in, like, ever. And that its a safe place for their family. That's why they go to zoos.

    Also, all those "standbyers" that WATCHED the kid climb the fucking thing and did jack shit about it don't have any right to go tattle telling all about what the kid threatened to do and then did. The mother had several children she was attending to, like a lot of parents, it wasn't just that one kid with her devoted attention.

    I don't want to see a gorilla killed. No one does. Especially not the zoo keepers. They spent time, energy, and probably a lot of thankless love hours caring for that animal. They get paid shit because they're doing what they love to do. But at the end of the day, between a human (baby that doesn't know better no less) life and an animal life, you're pretty much a monster for going with the gorilla. Sorry, but you are. I cannot and never will understand how people can circle-jerk about animal lives as if they take priority over one's own species. I loooooove animals... I devoted a fair amount of time to them as a kid, and growing up we cared and loved for many animals people literally threw out of their homes... but if a dog ever violently attacked my kid, I'd put that dog down. Our family was very sad to put one dog down that had too much violent acts in him to be near kids, and there are laws against hiding that shit for a reason. I love dogs a lot, but it isn't worth ignoring an obvious bad thing at the expense of losing one's kid potentially.

    The reality is? People think they'd be stellar hyper vigilant parents and this would never happen to them. and they're fucking wrong. Bad things happen to kids all the time even with good parenting. Children get sexually assaulted by people their parents thought they could trust. Children get hit by cars while their parents are being good drivers.

    You are not an awesome outstanding parent of the year that has a perfect track record because it doesn't exist. Put your "I would" hypothetical what-ifs to the side. They mean jackshit and don't count for anything. Most adults I know have at least one or two stories about how they were badly injured, in serious danger, or nearly killed as kids or teens. Sometimes without them even knowing it until later in life. If that was my kid, I'd be damn glad my kid was alive, even at the expense of a gorilla. And Gorillas fucking rock.
    I've heard the case compared here with other incidents like the McCann parents, both professionals, Doctors I think, they left their child unsupervised in the bedroom of a hotel while they were having a drink with friends, they didnt expect and its be argued couldnt have expected that their child would be unsafe and would be abducted by someone coming into the room via a window.

    I'm not sure that what's being discussed is one of those kind of incidents, there's lots of other families who come through that zoo and this never happened or happens to them, so I'm not entirely blaming the zoo. Its crazy to even describe it as common sense that you do not climb on or into exhibits because that kind of thing ought to go without saying but unfortunately these days, as a result of lax norms of responsibility and litigious law firms, it has to, its why you get all those instances of so called health and safety madness with individuals like the superman costume with a label reminding that it does not enable the wearer to fly.

    I'm not saying that the parents should be scape goated but is it too much to expect that they'd prevent this happening? Really? I dont believe that my parents were super human in their parenting and nothing remotely like this happened to me, its a tragedy and it would be cruel and unusual not to celebrate the fact that the child survived and that his parents are going to get another chance at trying to bring them up safely but what's being discussed is not difficult or exceptional or above average in risk calculation and behaviour management terms.

  5. #15
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I've heard the case compared here with other incidents like the McCann parents, both professionals, Doctors I think, they left their child unsupervised in the bedroom of a hotel while they were having a drink with friends, they didnt expect and its be argued couldnt have expected that their child would be unsafe and would be abducted by someone coming into the room via a window.

    I'm not sure that what's being discussed is one of those kind of incidents, there's lots of other families who come through that zoo and this never happened or happens to them, so I'm not entirely blaming the zoo. Its crazy to even describe it as common sense that you do not climb on or into exhibits because that kind of thing ought to go without saying but unfortunately these days, as a result of lax norms of responsibility and litigious law firms, it has to, its why you get all those instances of so called health and safety madness with individuals like the superman costume with a label reminding that it does not enable the wearer to fly.

    I'm not saying that the parents should be scape goated but is it too much to expect that they'd prevent this happening? Really? I dont believe that my parents were super human in their parenting and nothing remotely like this happened to me, its a tragedy and it would be cruel and unusual not to celebrate the fact that the child survived and that his parents are going to get another chance at trying to bring them up safely but what's being discussed is not difficult or exceptional or above average in risk calculation and behaviour management terms.
    Yeah, it usually doesn't happen because the kids basically decide to listen to their parents that moment. Kids decide to just not listen all the time though for less severe things. A kid can decide they don't want to wear their seat belt without their parent knowing about it after buckling the kid in. Most of the time it doesn't mean anything at all--until it does.

    Like I said, there were a ton of witnesses and no one, not one person, grabbed that kid and pulled it off of the exhibit prior to the 12 foot fall in. Everyone saw what that kid was doing, and what it said. No one stepped in at all. They just stood back and watched it happen. So. No. I don't expect the mom to be a super mom. And I DO expect adults to like..I dunno. Do a thing? And intervene for safety of children? But they didn't. So I don't know why this mom is being hyper focused on. I'm like 100000x positive she wasn't thinking her kid would ACTUALLY climb in with a gorilla.
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Like I said, there were a ton of witnesses and no one, not one person, grabbed that kid and pulled it off of the exhibit prior to the 12 foot fall in. Everyone saw what that kid was doing, and what it said. No one stepped in at all. They just stood back and watched it happen.
    I thought this too, from the beginning. But I totally get why no one did. Most people are fearful of touching a kid that's not theirs - any number of misunderstandings, possibly ending in allegations and arrest - are possible. I know that sounds far out but it happens all the time, even when someone is trying to help.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Also View Post
    Others who were present report that he did say it.
    They may not be sound sources. Journalists aren't like cops...they don't have to corroborate what people tell them. it only has to be true that somebody told them it was said for them to print it. it doesn't have to actually be said. That gives people ample room to stir the pot.

    The lack of security around the Gorilla exhibit just serves as another reason to take extra precaution. There are plenty of people who somehow managed not to climb over the wall.
    He didn't climb over it. And I wouldn't call it a wall...it was a "barrier" and all he had to do was crawl under a railing and through some bushes. Presto, he's in. It was poorly done. They needed a second barrier, for one, and one better made. The fact a four year old was able to get past it easily presumes the zoo's negligence. This isn't some super human kid with the power to walk through fire. And you're right, they had no security around the exhibit. They must've been trying to cut corners.

    If the kid jumped out of an airplane with a parachute on and landed in the gorilla exhibit, then I would not blame the zoo. But this is a foreseeable accident...its realistic to assume that a few parents may not keep the best eye on their kid, or that a kid may get lost or break away from a parent and make a run for it if they see a hole in the "barrier" they can slip through. It's not like parents go there with a collar and leash on the kid. So bottom line is it's up to the zoo to take that into account when they build the exhibit and invite the public in. And unless you have access to the 'books' you don't know how many incidents or close calls the zoo has had since opening in '78. and that's assuming such incidents were even recorded on the books and/or that they are still on file. naturally the zoo wants to downplay its negligence so I would expect "pro-zoo PR". In the end, it all comes back to the horrendously constructed exhibit.

  8. #18
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    It is no brainer really:

    1. ZOO made a mistake with how they designed their infrastructure
    2. Child made a mistake by taking a pointless risk/adventure
    3. Parents made a mistake by not watching what is going on.
    4. Gorilla clearly did the "wrong" thing


    This simply had to end with tragedy of some sort.
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  9. #19
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Mistakes happen, but I don't understand the need to assign blame at all times. Shit happens, it's sad for everyone. I'm glad we don't have to be sad about a dead kid, and I'm glad the kid doesn't have to be dead.
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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Mistakes happen, but I don't understand the need to assign blame at all times. Shit happens, it's sad for everyone. I'm glad we don't have to be sad about a dead kid, and I'm glad the kid doesn't have to be dead.
    It is pretty simple.

    If the kid fell in there it was probably obvious that something like this is possible and that protection is insufficient. However nothing was done about it.
    Parents should have paid more attention, especially if there were wild animals around.

    These are serious mistakes that were probably easy to predict.

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