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  1. #41
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    I have long thought that civil unions should be the only thing the state recognizes for F-F, F-M, or M-M unions. Let each religion sort out 'marriage' on their own, but whatever that is, is not legally binding.

    Edit: oh I see that @Ivy just posted the same general idea...
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    I have long thought that civil unions should be the only thing the state recognizes for F-F, F-M, or M-M unions. Let each religion sort out 'marriage' on their own, but whatever that is, is not legally binding.

    Edit: oh I see that @Ivy just posted the same general idea...
    I really dont see it as about religion, I see it as about what has been the norm for time and memorial for all but a small minority, historically speaking and presently, and this minority has enlisted their political allies to overturn that regardless of how anyone feels about it or the likely impact.

    I think its very unfortunate that religion has entered into it at all, although there's a lot of things religions continue to uphold which a lot of people dont realise the value of and think they can live without, I think that's alright if they're going to make that choice themselves, to live without it, and deal with the consequences individually, or perhaps even familially, but when it becomes something that they want for themselves, then their neighbours aswell, then their neighbours neighbours, until you're talking about the entire community, all of society, the world even, that's just not right.

    I dont believe that anyone really should interfer with minorities like homosexuals, whatever way they choose to live, then they choose to live that way, although they should have the same respect for the majority who dont share their identity, preferences etc. and all that go with it and leave them to live as they choose.

    This "cause" is absurd, its like suggesting that we'll surgically alter everyone so they are the same height because some people dont like being tall or some people dont like being short. Its only even treated as credible by a lot of people because of a lot what people imagine about those who oppose it, ie they are religiously motivated, they are all conservative, they are bullies, they are full of hatred etc. etc. Drain off all those emotions or associations and see the whole question for what it really is and you could think and feel about it a lot different to what you do.
    All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.
    Chapter IV, p. 448. - Adam Smith, Book 3, The Wealth of Nations

    whether or not you credit psychoanalysis itself, the fact remains that we all must, to the greatest extent possible, understand one another's minds as our own; the very survival of humanity has always depended on it. - Open Culture

  3. #43
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I really fail to see how it's at all like surgically altering anyone for any reason. Straight people can still get married to their hearts' content, and nobody is forcing anybody to get gay married. Gay couples getting married affects my ability to marry and raise a family with my husband in absolutely no way whatsoever.

  4. #44
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I really fail to see how it's at all like surgically altering anyone for any reason. Straight people can still get married to their hearts' content, and nobody is forcing anybody to get gay married. Gay couples getting married affects my ability to marry and raise a family with my husband in absolutely no way whatsoever.
    There is a physical difference in the parents of a child post ssm.
    "You know, with Hitler, the more I learn about that guy, the more I don't care for him."
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    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    There is a physical difference in the parents of a child post ssm.
    How are gay parents different physically for being allowed to marry? Because surely you don't think that disallowing gay marriage also disallows gay parenting. My husband had gay dads way back in the 70s. (He turned out fine, for the record. Also straight.)

  6. #46
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Since my preference is to allow all preferences, it should be uncontroversial.
    Your preference excludes the ability of communities to live and establish norms of society as they see fit.




    Biology takes care of children having parents.
    Not necessarily and sometimes only after Jerry Springer or Maury Povich gets involved.



    I pity you for this mindset.
    Why?
    "You know, with Hitler, the more I learn about that guy, the more I don't care for him."
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  7. #47
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    How are gay parents different physically for being allowed to marry? Because surely you don't think that disallowing gay marriage also disallows gay parenting. My husband had gay dads way back in the 70s. (He turned out fine, for the record. Also straight.)
    The physical difference is in the experience of a child who is denied a parent of one sex or the other. Gay marriage is a state endorsement of gay parenting.

    You don't think there's anything unique you impart to your children by being a woman as opposed to a man?

    I just want to give children equal access to parents of both sexes.

    How is equal access wrong?
    "You know, with Hitler, the more I learn about that guy, the more I don't care for him."
    Norm MacDonald

  8. #48
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Your preference excludes the ability of communities to live and establish norms of society as they see fit.
    In this one regard, yes, because the positive effects outweigh the negative ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Why?
    Because it is idiotic. It suggests that growing up in a dysfunctional marriage is preferable to growing up with divorced parents, that misery is good as long as it satisfies some imaginary rule or entity. It produces slaves.

  9. #49
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Because it is idiotic. It suggests that growing up in a dysfunctional marriage is preferable to growing up with divorced parents, that misery is good as long as it satisfies some imaginary rule or entity. It produces slaves.
    No, it's not a matter of satisfying some imaginary rule or entity it's a matter of love and self-sacrifice for the sake of others. You say my view produces slaves and I say your view produces lonely self-loving fools who are slaves to their own whims.
    "You know, with Hitler, the more I learn about that guy, the more I don't care for him."
    Norm MacDonald

  10. #50
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    You poor, deluded fools. I pity you.

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