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  1. #71
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post
    I agree. I was simply pointing out the usual absurdity of Salomé's argument. According to her, no men - especially not white men - are allowed to complain about anything.
    How about you take your own advice?
    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post
    "Stop whining."
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #72
    Let Go Of Your Team Zarathustra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post
    It is a chemical in a plastic container labelled according to one of its possible applications, which is to remove spots. Another of its applications - or rather, capability - is to look interesting enough to children that they drink it and subsequently are poisoned.

    Reproduction is the purpose of sex, just like the removal of a wine spot from a carpet is the purpose of a cleaning product, but I wouldn't want to call reproduction the fundamental purpose of sex, since most people do not stop wanting it even while they/their partner is pregnant. The purpose of the act is attributed by the people in the moment, and both people can attribute different purpose of the act in that moment - therefore this thread.
    There can be other purposes to sex, but they are secondary to the fundamental purpose. If it weren't for the fact that sex was the means for sexual reproduction, it would not exist. The fact that it has secondary purposes, such as pleasure, bonding between mates, etc., are either ploys by nature to try and get us to reproduce (whether intentionally or unintentionally), or means of making us content enough with life/our relationship/our family that we don't kill ourselves or them, and work enough such that we/they may survive (and thrive?), and repeat the process.
    The Justice Fighter

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    "I trust what you are doing though…I just see it a little differently.
    I don’t see it as you stepping away from the fire. I see it as the fire directing your course.
    No matter how airy or earthy or watery you become... to many of us you will always be...a super nova."

    "Behind these gates of seeming warmth sits, loosely chained, a fierce attack dog. Perhaps not crazy, but dangerous"

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  3. #73
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    There can be other purposes to sex, but they are secondary to the fundamental purpose. If it weren't for the fact that sex was the means for sexual reproduction, it would not exist. The fact that it has secondary purposes, such as pleasure, bonding between mates, etc., are either ploys by nature to try and get us to reproduce (whether intentionally or unintentionally), or means of making us content enough with life/our relationship/our family that we don't kill ourselves or them, and work enough such that we/they may survive (and thrive?), and repeat the process.
    He speaks of purpose in nature.


  4. #74
    Let Go Of Your Team Zarathustra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    He speaks of purpose in nature.

    Hey look, it's the postmodernist green meme.

    How clever you still manage to think you are.
    The Justice Fighter

    INTJ - 6w5 8dw 3w4 sx/so - Neutral Good

    "I trust what you are doing though…I just see it a little differently.
    I don’t see it as you stepping away from the fire. I see it as the fire directing your course.
    No matter how airy or earthy or watery you become... to many of us you will always be...a super nova."

    "Behind these gates of seeming warmth sits, loosely chained, a fierce attack dog. Perhaps not crazy, but dangerous"

    The Aggressive 6
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  5. #75
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    I'm glad I'm not participating in this thread. I think it would make me lose hope for humanity.
    "You know, with Hitler, the more I learn about that guy, the more I don't care for him."
    Norm MacDonald

  6. #76
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Hey look, it's the postmodernist green meme.
    What is the color of your position, beige?

  7. #77
    Let Go Of Your Team Zarathustra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    What is the color of your position, beige?
    Ah, did you watch that video?

    But no, no need to steal that joke.

    Thank you, tho, for demonstrating the pre/trans-fallacy.
    The Justice Fighter

    INTJ - 6w5 8dw 3w4 sx/so - Neutral Good

    "I trust what you are doing though…I just see it a little differently.
    I don’t see it as you stepping away from the fire. I see it as the fire directing your course.
    No matter how airy or earthy or watery you become... to many of us you will always be...a super nova."

    "Behind these gates of seeming warmth sits, loosely chained, a fierce attack dog. Perhaps not crazy, but dangerous"

    The Aggressive 6
    Debator


  8. #78
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Ah, did you watch that video?
    No.

    But, back to the question: How do you determine a purpose and how do you differentiate between fundamental and secondary purposes?

  9. #79
    Let Go Of Your Team Zarathustra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    But, back to the question:
    You mean back to the attempt to engage in hyperbolic doubt of all things in which you don't believe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    How do you determine a purpose...
    I use this big ol' brain o' mine.

    You know: the fact that sex leads to reproduction... I notice difficult, hard-to-see patterns like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    ...and how do you differentiate between fundamental and secondary purposes?
    Well, let's just take this specific case, cuz I'm not necessarily trying to make some generalizable law that applies to all things at all times from this.

    That being said, in this case, reproduction would not have occurred among sexually-reproducing beings if it weren't for such beings engaging in sex. This process has occurred repeatedly over millions of years, among sexually-reproducing beings that aren't even necessarily of our own species, and if it weren't for this process occurring, we wouldn't be here today to be discussing your inane proposition that reproduction is not the purpose of sex.

    The pleasure, bonding of mates, etc. are secondary purposes because, if they were to happen, but reproduction would not occur, then we would not be here discussing your proposition. In fact, in some (probably many) species, these secondary purposes don't even exist; in some species, spikey bones protrude from the male's penis after he's entered the female, effectively anchoring him inside her, so that she may not escape during the process, thus ensuring maximum likelihood of reproduction (and, iirc, the blood, or chemicals, or pain, produced in the female, from these spikes, actually further enhances the likelihood of reproductive success). As such, pleasure, mate-bonding, etc., as I said, serve the purpose of aiding and abetting reproduction and survival. I threw in "thriving" -- with a question mark -- because I'm not a pathetic nihilist and am willing to consider such possibilities.
    The Justice Fighter

    INTJ - 6w5 8dw 3w4 sx/so - Neutral Good

    "I trust what you are doing though…I just see it a little differently.
    I don’t see it as you stepping away from the fire. I see it as the fire directing your course.
    No matter how airy or earthy or watery you become... to many of us you will always be...a super nova."

    "Behind these gates of seeming warmth sits, loosely chained, a fierce attack dog. Perhaps not crazy, but dangerous"

    The Aggressive 6
    Debator


  10. #80
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    You mean back to the attempt to engage in hyperbolic doubt of all things in which you don't believe?
    Yes. No need to be angry. We're just talking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I use this big ol' brain o' mine.

    You know: the fact that sex leads to reproduction... I notice difficult, hard-to-see patterns like that.
    Is it the purpose of the sun to shine, then?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Well, let's just take this specific case, cuz I'm not necessarily trying to make some generalizable law that applies to all things at all times from this.

    That being said, in this case, reproduction would not have occurred among sexually-reproducing beings if it weren't for such beings engaging in sex. This process has occurred repeatedly over millions of years, among sexually-reproducing beings that aren't even necessarily of our own species, and if it weren't for this process occurring, we wouldn't be here today to be discussing your inane proposition that reproduction is not the purpose of sex.

    The pleasure, bonding of mates, etc. are secondary purposes because, if they were to happen, but reproduction would not occur, then we would not be here discussing your proposition. In fact, in some (probably many) species, these secondary purposes don't even exist; in some species, spikey bones protrude from the male's penis after he's entered the female, effectively anchoring him inside her, so that she may not escape during the process, thus ensuring maximum likelihood of reproduction (and, iirc, the blood, or chemicals, or pain, produced in the female, from these spikes, actually further enhances the likelihood of reproductive success). As such, pleasure, mate-bonding, etc., as I said, serve the purpose of aiding and abetting reproduction and survival.
    How do you know that these different activities are all sex? What makes them the same except your unique ability to notice difficult, hard-to-see patterns?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I threw in "thriving" -- with a question mark -- because I'm not a pathetic nihilist and am willing to consider such possibilities.
    Do you agree with Wilber, that chance and natural selection by themselves are not enough to account for the emergence that we see in evolution? Because if you do, the question is answered.

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