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  1. #121
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    May 2007


    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    How 'bout that Ron Paul?
    Stop being so judgmental!
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #122
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Sep 2007


    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Under what further evidence would you say he was guilty of sexual harassment?
    Is what we are presented enough?
    or would you need confirmation of further evidence before you concluded that?
    Thanks Ygolo for offering another POV and bringing up the specter of ageism. FWIW, I didn't know the student was an older one until later and that just made me think he's old school chauvinist and feels entitled to being able to harass women. I've gone back to school after getting a BA so have had classmates who were old enough to be my parents so I understand what you're referring to. I also had an older classmate who everyone (including guys) called creepy, except it was because he acted very inappropriately like flirting with female students who were at least 30 years younger than himself an not yet of drinking age. He told me to make dinner for him once. I think he may be on the Asperger's spectrum, I dunno.

    I think in your case what you are experiencing is more outright racism tinged with ageism from traditional aged students who are lacking maturity and life experience. This case with the kicked out student is different as we're talking about an older white (?) man and how his teachers, not his fellow students, reacted to him.

    And it wasn't his appearance or 'creepy vibe' that got him in trouble, it was specifically the continued harassment via his assignments. Basically soft porn love letters to people who did not want them and he kept harassing them under the guise of class work. He basically abused his position as a 'student' and the guise of 'education' to get access to nubile young women or something like that.

    For myself, regardless of the age, appearance, or race of the student involved, it's just a guy pushing up on women and gaining access to them when they tell him to stop.

    Now, if it were a female doing this to male teachers, it would still be inappropriate and actionable, but let's be real, until the day where more women than men are raping and perpetrating violence against men (or shooting up public places), it probably would not have been treated with the same gravity. Probably would not be getting picked up by some 'freedom of speech' group either.

    This isn't really a matter of having naughty thoughts about women. In a classroom or a boardroom you can think whatever you want about whoever you want, however you must still *act* within the confines of rules, both the institution's as well as society's.

    For me, the evidence presented (through Orangey's link) is enough to warrant sexual harassment. He was being inappropriate and crossing boundaries, he was warned, he kept doing it.

    Honestly though, who does that? Write sexual fantasies etc. about their teachers and hands it in to them and then has the gall to go "What's the problem?" He was purposely trolling. Maybe he's like the naked dude at Cal.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux


  3. #123
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Jun 2008


    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    He was purposely trolling.
    People on the OU newspaper site and on that Fabricator's site (which they just changed to require login, wow) were suggesting that this is what he does all the time. Plus he said this in a letter to the Vice President of Student Affairs:

    Does the University see any irony in assigning me Me and Miss Mandible, by Donald Barthelme, in Fiction 303, the story of a boy/man having sexual relations with his teacher while bringing nonacademic conduct charges against me for trying to emulate an assigned writer? Isn't this why I'm in school? I never suggested a sexual relationship with Ms. Mitzelfeld, yet the University makes student/teacher sexual relations required reading? This is the tremendous educational cost of political correctness and students deserve better.
    Seems he always has an axe to grind anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    He was being inappropriate and crossing boundaries, he was warned, he kept doing it.
    Well, he claims that he wasn't warned. A couple of articles, when they first came out, said that he was, but he had them correct that information. He also claims that he was not told to stay away from campus, so he was confused when she had campus police escort him out of the building when he came back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Stop being so judgmental!
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  4. #124
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Feb 2008


    Well, you can be attracted to your teacher without writing creepily about her in a journal you know she'll read. You can be older than your classmates and be part of a study group with them as long as you're acting like a normal human, rather than the guy who stares a little long and tries to find ways to hang out with a female classmate or makes excuses to contact just her. IMO, that's not ageism--that's creepy behavior anyway, BUT it IS worse when it's a guy who should have learned how to not creep women out 20 or 30 years prior.

    I've been on the receiving end of the old creeper guy wanting to study with me, and I've had young guys crush on me in class. The younger guys, for some reason, know not to take it too far. It's easily handled with gentle redirection. The older guys seem to latch onto anyone that doesn't actively tell them to GTFO, so it quickly escalates, and can sometimes turn scary. It especially turns scary with guys like this, who also have a streak of "what is this world coming to, with its rules and PC attitude?! I'll say the n-word if I want! I'll carry guns to class if I want! I'll tell a pretty girl she's sexy if I want!" It's always the other person who, in his eyes, is being too serious and needs to just lighten up and take his crap, which he's convinced himself is harmless, but that remains to be seen to the outside world.

    I've also had very rewarding intellectual experiences with older men, some of them fellow students and some professors. There was no interest expressed or creepiness creeped--they treated me like someone they enjoyed sharing ideas with. My favorite professor really liked to talk about porn in class (he liked to discuss it from an academic standpoint), but he never, ever crossed a line with me outside of class, and we had many, many discussions.

    I understand being concerned about ageism and about not knowing/being aware of inappropriateness, but I seriously doubt you would ever come anywhere close to doing what this guy did. This guy seemed to enjoy the fact that he was getting to write about being attracted to his teacher and that she would have to read and comment on it. The shared vulnerability, the secret they'd have together, etc. This was not a writing exercise. Having read a zillion student submissions, you learn to spot the red flags (and the ones who are harmless) really quickly.
    Something Witty

  5. #125


    About [struck: a decade ago] twenty years ago, I'll be 56 in November of 2011, the fog began to lift. It was refreshing to have some spare in my brain to think about thoughts other than sex. Like dropping from a hundred time a dat to just 20. What a relief, but you don't get wood at the titty bars anymore. Small tradeoff.

    I can't believe I just wrote that but I did and it's staying. I don't give a fuck. It is what it is. I WILL NOT TEAR THIS PAGE.

    My first battle with the hot for teacher thing, aside from second grade, was fought in Composition I at Oakland Community College. She was blonde and attractive in the Meg Ryan kind of way which I usually don't go for. (Fucking preposition at the end of that sentence, Fuck it) FOR WHICH I DO NOT GO? YEAH, RIGHT.

    I shouldn't have taken her for Comp 2 but I couldn't resist smart and pretty. I aced in both but that only encouraged me. Her skirt came unzipped in Comp 2 one day and her polka-dotted panties were exposed. I was a perfect gentleman and discretely told her to pull her sweater over. She smiled and thanked me. It is our delicious little secret.

    (Intro transition here).

    Then there's Ms. Mitzelfeld, English 380. She walks in and I say to myself "Drop, motherfucker, drop." Kee-rist, I'll never learn a thing. Tall, blond, stacked, skirt, heels, fingernails, smart, articulate, smile. I'm toast but I stay, I'll fuck up my whole Tuesday-Thursday class thing if I drop. I'll search for something unattractive about her. No luck yet. Shit.
    Not only is he admitting to having had one of these "crushes" before in this passage, but he's barking orders at his own erect penis. Just a creative writing exercise? Seriously? The jury is still out for some of you?

    He wasn't even banned from OU classes for 3 semesters, just on-site classes. He's still an active student enrolled in online courses. He refused the sensitivity counseling so he's restricted to online studies until he "cools down", which seems pretty damn generous to me.
    "The views of absolutists and purists everywhere should be noted in fierce detail, then meticulously and thoroughly printed onto my toilet paper ply."

  6. #126

    Default Update

    So this tool-bag reemerges: College Student Kicked Out of School for Penning ‘Hot for Teacher’ Essay Invited to Script Teacher-Themed Porn Scenes

    Also, are we to understand this lawsuit is still pending?
    "The views of absolutists and purists everywhere should be noted in fierce detail, then meticulously and thoroughly printed onto my toilet paper ply."

  7. #127
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Nov 2007
    ENTp None


    Pretty straightforward.

    He created, by way of his writing, (through misinterpretation or otherwise) an unsafe work environment. Or perhaps a work environment in which the professor was no longer professionally able to perform her job to the extent required to fulfill the expectations of her employer. As a result, the offending party was removed.

    When thinking about cases that involve controversial personal expression, your right to express ends when it harasses or degrades the quality of life for another, such that your freedom now inhibits theirs.

  8. #128
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007


    If I were the teacher, I would defend the student.
    If I were the principal of the school, I would defend the student.
    If I were the student, I would defend myself.

    It is the duty of the teacher to defend the student. The teacher, aside from her teaching, has no other obligation.
    It is the duty of the principal of the school to defend the student. The principal, aside from her rather minor other duties, has no other obligation.

    In case the school authorities fail to understand their first line of duty, it is the duty of the student to defend herself. Fiercily.

    Freedom of expression is inviolable. Read the constitution.
    An aim to censure creative writing writing tallies sanctimony.

  9. #129


    Gotta love this culture of "Hey! Remember that one time someone did something laughable or controversial, once? Well, here they are, with their own long-running series!!"

    e.g. William Hung

  10. #130
    . JAVO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    5w4 sx/sp


    I think the ultimate failure of the student is also the ultimate failure of any writer, and that's a failure to consider the audience.

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