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  1. #11
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Oct 2008


    I don't know what will come sooner - they day when peace is declared between Israelis and Palestinians, or the day when the world stops being dependent on oil (at which point, nobody will give a shit about what's going on in the middle east, just like nobody really gives a shit about what's going on in sub-saharan Africa right now).
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  2. #12
    Senior Member
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    Aug 2008


    The latter. We already have Tesla Motors making fully-electric cars, and trains run on electricity already. Not sure if there'd be a way to make jets fly without fuel, but the Middle East isn't the only source of oil in the world.

    As for conflicts between the Israelis and the Palestinians...

    Son, shit's been going on in Israel for the past 2000 years (heck, even before then), and considering how much anti-semitism there is in the world (especially from some Muslims...I mean yeah, some idiot white people hate Jews for controlling the media/banks/etc... (the veracity of which I won't get into), but some Muslims just generally want to wipe out the Jews period. Quite a few of them happen to be in Hamas, so...), and IMO, it isn't going to end anytime soon.

    American presidents can say what they'd like, but at the end of the day, peace depends on TWO sides wanting it. If the Israelis were anywhere near as evil as the Palestinians, they'd wipe out Gaza and the West Bank in a few weeks down to the last man, woman, child, cat, dog, and rat and be done with it. They have platoons of tanks, an air force full of elite American fourth and a half generation fighters and strike jets, and perhaps the best man for man army in the world.

    It isn't the Palestinians holding back the Israelis, and nor is it the combined "might" of the Arab regions around Israel either. We've been down that road in 1967 and Israel cleaned house, and the gap has only widened since then.

    When people look at this situation, they simply have to see that it isn't that both sides are equally immoral. It's just the side with the evil people on it doesn't have the access to the military hardware needed to carry it out on any significant scale.
    I am an ENTJ. I hate political correctness but love smart people ^_^

  3. #13
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Jun 2009


    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    Why is the holocaust constantly brought up time and again? Ohhh, I don't know, maybe because in every single prior instance of history, there was some oppressor killing and scattering Jews, and the biggest most horrifying one was the holocaust. Trust me, it's happened before then, and right to form, Ismail Haniyeh, Hezbollah, and the rest of those towel-headed-why-can't-we-throw-out-the-Geneva-convention-so-we-can-erase-those-shitstains-from-the-planet-collateral-damage-be-damned theocrats are as usual, calling for the destruction of the Jews.
    Oh, I seem to remember the Hebrews going genocidal on a couple of tribes in the Torah. Ever thought those groups might not hate you so much for inherent Jewishness as much as for spraying Willie Pete all over elementary schools in Gaza?

    That's why. This isn't a "oh we Palestinians want some land". No, if it was simply a case of "we feel wronged, we have grievances to redress", the Palestinians would never have taken up violence.
    What's their other option - they can't go before the ICJ (not a formal state for most of their history), and name the Israeli judge who wouldn't fuck them over six ways to Sunday. Meanwhile, how do they expect to negotiate in good faith when Israel plops settlements in violation of previous agreements at the seeming drop of a hat?

    It isn't simply a case of having some mutual negotiation.
    You're right. Likud wants all of Palestine, and will continue to act like a spoiled child, precluding all good faith negotiations.

    However, in the middle east, it's more a case of the fact that A) you have Arab dictatorial theocratic states for miles around, and don't be fooled by this whole "Arab Spring". You have a bunch of relatively uneducated (by modern standards) and unemployed people rising up to throw a dictator out of power, but who will they elect? Probably more theocrats since it's the only thing they know B) the more theocratic these people are, the more they hate Jews, infidels, and cultures that let women walk around in skimpy clothing, charge interest on loans, idolize sexuality, etc...
    Um, how do you know that? Last time I checked, the Arab Street was surprisingly educated. Oil money will do that for you.
    What exactly do you call Likud if not theocratic? Assuming that you consider Judaism a religion and not an ethnicity.

    So generally, it isn't a case of "you took our land", because throughout history, there has been plenty of nations getting downsized, such as the Japanese empire getting eviscerated, Germany losing territory to Poland after WW2, and so forth.
    Tu quoque. That's pretty weak by anyone's standard. The whole Poland thing wasn't exactly a bright moment for humanity, either - it was a fairly brutal process of Russians driving out Poles, who then drove out Prussian Germans. "Driving out" is a nice way of saying "vengefully raping and plundering"

    No, the violence and vitriol on the part of one side (that's the Palestinians) mainly arises from the fact that it's Israel there, and not other Muslims.
    And the whole bombing of children every three years or so. That tends to piss people off.

    And perhaps they're fortunate in this fact as well...because if it had been another group of Arabs they were constantly pestering with their only occasionally effective suicide bombings, random civilian killings, and rocket attacks, that other Arab nation wouldn't have had many qualms about breaking the Geneva conventions, doing some morally reprehensible things, and generally scouring those misbegotten misfits from the face of the planet.
    And they'd be labeled a pariah state for it. You're not exactly setting a high bar for yourself here.

    In my opinion, the very fact that the Palestinians actually think they can negotiate is absurd. Israel can and probably should say "we're not budging, and if you try anything violent, we'll make you pay in blood a thousandfold. Try calling our bluff, and we'll make Operation Cast Lead seem like child's play".
    And the "apartheid state" rhetoric would go from merely rhetoric to reality, and Israel would lose tons of crucial overseas support. Here's a secret they may not have told you about - most Jewish young adults in the United States do not approve of Israel's policies, nor do they feel a strong connection to Israel, beyond the fun memories of their Birthright trips. The influence of AIPAC in Washington has collapsed spectacularly over the last four years or so. This is not the time to lose the propaganda war through barbarism.

    Any Palestinian leader in that case, if he truly cares about the preservation of his people's lives, would actually do very well to heed that advice. Any Palestinian leader that calls the Israeli bluff should be seen as one who doesn't give a damn about the very people he claims to lead.
    Oh, he MADE us slaughter their population. What psychopathic drivel.

    After all, as Israel has shown in Cast Lead, when it comes to stopping violence, that's priority one. And if it means stooping to your opponent's level if it gets them to stop, so be it.
    That's the argument a bad parent makes for physically abusing children. It really illuminates what Israel (or I should say, Likud) thinks of the Palestinians.

    Edit: and sure about the two state thing (whatever that means--not like the Palestinians would be welcomed in Israel), but splitting Jerusalem? To illustrate the absurdity of that statement:

    Imagine if a radical Muslim group started carrying out suicide attacks in London and demanded a chunk of it be under their control outside English authority, or they'd continue with the acts of violence.

    Sound absurd?
    Well, there are a good number of Muslims in London. I guess if they really wanted to, they could make a bloody mess of it. However, the British Government does a fairly good job of not being racist assholes toward the Muslims there, so aside from having to deal with a few yobs calling them Pakis every so often, they've really got no reason to revolt.

    A legitimate reason to revolt would include firing white phosphorus into elementary schools.

    What would happen if Israeli leaders said "Forget your negotiations through violence, do your worst, and we'll do ours. Let's go?"
    At best, South Africa during the 1980s; at worst, a regional nuclear war

  4. #14
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Dec 2008
    4w5 so/sp


    Quote Originally Posted by IlyaK1986 View Post
    I mean Bibi Netanyahu, but Badass Netanyahu sounds cooler anyway...

    Something that really really bugs me about the dude I voted into office is this...

    Why does he always start negotiations where he should finish them?

    EG start with public option, end up at some sort of insurance reform. Now, start with 1967 borders for Israel (LOL!), end up who knows where...

    Now that the Palestinian governments are united and next to Mahmoud Abbas is that ugly motherfucker Ismayil Haniyeh...uhhh...

    Can't we simply make negotiations go like this?

    Palestinians have rockets. Israel has M1 Abrams tanks and generation 4.5 fighter jets with F-35s (if not F-22s...we really could close the deficit some by exporting those guys to Australia, Japan, and Israel). Palestinians fire rockets, two can play at that game.

    Negotiations: you do as we say, because otherwise we'll just continue doing what we're doing, and if you try to commit violence, we'll pay you back a hundredfold like on Obama's inauguration.

    I mean honestly, before even beginning negotiations, why can't Obama demand that the Palestinians will

    A) never ever have a standing army
    B) recognize Israel's right to exist
    C) completely renounce any fundamentalist ideologies and expunge such people from their government
    D) renounce right of return (not logistically happening)

    And then we can talk...

    Why exactly is our president being such a sissy? Doesn't he realize he's the most powerful guy in the world here? Who needs partiality? Especially to people who danced in the streets when the WTC got destroyed on 9/11?
    I began to reply to this but there's so much facepalm I don't know where to start...
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  5. #15
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Feb 2010


    Also worth noting that most Israelis and Palestinians support the 67 Borders. Netanyahu isn't being a badass or standing up for Israel's interests according to the people, he's holding up actually making any progress on this point while most of his people want him to.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

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