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  1. #221
    Junior Member
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    Jun 2007


    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Wow. How many ways is it possible to miss the point? Time and location has nothing to do with it. The fact is, we can all agree on a way of determining what the temperature of the frying pan is at any point in time and at any location. Any two impartial observers will arrive at the same result given the same circumstances. If one fails to, we can easily determine who is "right" and who is "wrong".
    And that all parallels perfectly with "John thought killing was bad".

    Granted, it's currently easier to measure temperature than measure someone's opinion/mental state, but honest self-reporting or simply observing someone's behaviour closely is an effective method. Let alone that if it's your own opinion its very easy to measure.

    So the closest thing to a controversial claim that Moral Subjectivism makes is that John's perspective is a time and location separate from other places. Meaning if there was only John's perspective, AKA he was a true solipsist, the phrase "In John's perspective, killing is bad" would be redundant. You'd just say "killing is bad". Because there are multiple perspectives, relativity comes into account. Just like with so many frying pans about, you have to specify the time and location of the one the claim is about. "Killing is bad", when there's thousands of people in existence, becomes like saying "The frying pan is 20 degrees" when you are surrounded by thousands of different frying pans.

  2. #222
    Junior Member ZPhoenix's Avatar
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    Apr 2011


    Sincerest apologies for reviving this thread... but I had come across it as a result of googling around Heisman and looking for discussions of his work and what people have had to say about it. I'm an undergrad philosophy student that, more or less, agrees with Heisman's way of thought and so I wanted to see if there were any good arguments against him.

    This thread is one of the best I have found, especially as some serious philosophy has been entered into here, going into semantics, ontology, teleology and so on. I wanted to sincerely thank each and every one of you for contributing to it and for this thread still remaining as an exchange that can be accessed well after the initial conversation.

    I wanted to post a passage from Nietzsche's Will to Power that I think will be quite relevant. The whole work is about reconciling nihilism with the will to live. For those wanting to look at the implications of all of this (what does it mean for my existence?), and not get caught down in the semantics of it all, I highly recommend delving further into Nietzsche's work.

    Decline of Cosmological Values

    ( A )

    Nihilism as a psychological state will have to be reached, first, when we have sought a "meaning" in all events that is not there: so the seeker eventually becomes discouraged. Nihilism, then, is the recognition of the long waste of strength, the agony of the "in vain," insecurity, the lack of any opportunity to recover and to regain composure--being ashamed in front of oneself, as if one had deceived oneself all too long.--This meaning could have been: the "fulfillment" of some highest ethical canon in all events, the moral world order; or the growth of love and harmony in the intercourse of beings; or the gradual approximation of a state of universal happiness; or even the development toward a state of universal annihilation--any goal at least constitutes some meaning. What all these notions have in common is that something is to be achieved through the process--and now one realizes that becoming aims at nothing and achieves nothing.-- Thus, disappointment regarding an alleged aim of becoming as a cause of nihilism: whether regarding a specific aim or, universalized, the realization that all previous hypotheses about aims that concern the whole "evolution" are inadequate (man no longer the collaborator, let alone the center, of becoming).

    Nihilism as a psychological state is reached, secondly, when one has posited a totality, a systematization, indeed any organization in all events, and underneath all events, and a soul that longs to admire and revere has wallowed in the idea of some supreme form of domination and administration (--if the soul be that of a logician, complete consistency and real dialectic are quite sufficient to reconcile it to everything). Some sort of unity, some form of "monism": this faith suffices to give man a deep feeling of standing in the context of, and being dependent on, some whole that is infinitely superior to him, and he sees himself as a mode of the deity.--"The well-being of the universal demands the devotion of the individual"--but behold, there is no such universal! At bottom, man has lost the faith in his own value when no infinitely valuable whole works through him; i. e., he conceived such a whole in order to be able to believe in his own value.

    Nihilism as psychological state has yet a third and last form.

    Given these two insights, that becoming has no goal and that underneath all becoming there is no grand unity in which the individual could immerse himself completely as in an element of supreme value, an escape remains: to pass sentence on this whole world of becoming as a deception and to invent a world beyond it, a true world. But as soon as man finds out how that world is fabricated solely from psychological needs, and how he has absolutely no right to it, the last form of nihilism comes into being: it includes disbelief in any metaphysical world and forbids itself any belief in a true world. Having reached this standpoint, one grants the reality of becoming as the only reality, forbids oneself every kind of clandestine access to afterworlds and false divinities--but cannot endure this world though one does not want to deny it.

    What has happened, at bottom? The feeling of valuelessness was reached with the realization that the overall character of existence may not be interpreted by means of the concept of "aim," the concept of "unity," or the concept of "truth." Existence has no goal or end; any comprehensive unity in the plurality of events is lacking: the character of existence is not "true," is false. One simply lacks any reason for convincing oneself that there is a true world. Briefly: the categories "aim," "unity," "being" which we used to project some value into the world--we pull out again; so the world looks valueless.

    ( B )

    Suppose we realize how the world may no longer be interpreted in terms of these three categories, and that the world begins to become valueless for us after this insight: then we have to ask about the sources of our faith in these three categories. Let us try if it is not possible to give up our faith in them. Once we have devaluated these three categories, the demonstration that they cannot be applied to the universe is no longer any reason for devaluating the universe.

    Conclusion: The faith in the categories of reason is the cause of nihilism. We have measured the value of the world according to categories that refer to a purely fictitious world.

    Final conclusion: All the values by means of which we have tried so far to render the world estimable for ourselves and which then proved inapplicable and therefore devaluated the world--all these values are, psychologically considered, the results of certain perspectives of utility, designed to maintain and increase human constructs of domination--and they have been falsely projected into the essence of things. What we find here is still the hyperbolic naivete of man: positing himself as the meaning and measure of the value of things.

    . . . that there is no truth, that there is no absolute nature of things nor a "thing-in-itself." This, too, IS merely nihilism--even the most extreme nihilism. It places the value of things precisely in the lack of any reality corresponding to these values and in their being merely a symptom of strength on the part of the value-positers, a simplification for the sake of life.

  3. #223


    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    <Personal experience with suicide>
    I'm very sorry to hear about your friend.

    As for the topic, I think it is important to know what the deceased have to say, but not to venerate it considering the impulse it was written under.
    "The views of absolutists and purists everywhere should be noted in fierce detail, then meticulously and thoroughly printed onto my toilet paper ply."

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