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  1. #101
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    A lot of great people in history have taken their lives, Primo Levi is one of those who immediately springs to mind when I think about this, Socrates is another although that was more of an execution but I dont think I will remember this guy how I remember them.

  2. #102
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    The premise is false and also paradoxical because values are essentially valuable.

    If you want to keep the conclusion, which seems to be the staple of his note, it should be revised to-

    "If nothing has inherent value, then life has no inherent value."
    Incorrect.
    Values have no *inherent* value.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    The premise is false and also paradoxical because values are essentially valuable.

    If you want to keep the conclusion, which seems to be the staple of his note, it should be revised to-

    "If nothing has inherent value, then life has no inherent value."
    It doesn't have a premise. It is a premise, as it does not claim that values have no inherent value, only if they didn't have inherent value. [/nitpick]

    I agree though, it is self evident that value itself is inherently valuable. A is inherently A.

  4. #104
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    I agree though, it is self evident that value itself is inherently valuable. A is inherently A.
    It's only "self"-evident. It's not true.

    Inherent means intrinsic. Nothing has value intrinsically. Only the value that we arbitrarily assign. It's a important distinction.
    In fact, the entire basis of existentialism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #105
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    value /= valueable, just as signifier /= signified
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  6. #106
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    dear god... writing 1,905 pages of pseudo-philosophical drivel would drive me to suicide!
    “The phrase 'Someone ought to do something' was not, by itself, a helpful one. People who used it never added the rider 'and that someone is me'.” - Terry Pratchett

  7. #107
    Let Go Of Your Team Zarathustra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    Values have no *inherent* value.
    That is a value judgment.

    It is not necessarily true.

    To claim it is would be false.
    "I trust what you are doing though…I just see it a little differently.
    I don’t see it as you stepping away from the fire. I see it as the fire directing your course.
    No matter how airy or earthy or watery you become... to many of us you will always be...a super nova."

    "Behind these gates of seeming warmth sits, loosely chained, a fierce attack dog. Perhaps not crazy, but dangerous"

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    It's only "self"-evident. It's not true.

    Inherent means intrinsic. Nothing has value intrinsically. Only the value that we arbitrarily assign. It's a important distinction.
    In fact, the entire basis of existentialism.
    Yes, value has value intrinsically. You can't claim something exists without it inherently/intrinsically existing somewhere, it's a contradiction.

    It doesn't matter that value is in the mind or that its correlation to things outside the mind are arbitrary, as it doesn't change the fact that it is obviously valuable in itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    value /= valueable, just as signifier /= signified
    False comparison.

    "It is very valuable" and "it has high value" mean the same thing. "It is a signifier" and "it has signified" do not mean the same thing.

    Yes it's not a complete equivalence, just like "fast" (valuable) and "speed" (value) are not the same, but they describe the same concept.

    (e.g. Pain is inherently painful. It's arbitrarily linked to other things, like being stabbed, but not to pain itself. Anyone who experiences pain finds it painful, anyone who experiences value finds it valuable. Pain /= painful. One does not find other's pain painful, or other's values valuable, because one hasn't actually found their pain or value, to do so you'd need to be the other person, otherwise it is always one's own pain/value, and not the other's.)

  9. #109
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Well, I'm honestly not too sure what purpose he served. One of my LiveJournal friends read further than I have and apparently got to "Barack Obama: Supernigger."

    It's definitely no A Confederacy of Dunces.

    John Kennedy Toole...now THAT was a suicidal man with a real purpose. He wrote a great fucking book

    .
    Agreed!!!

    I read it in my apartment in Boulder, Co, I would lose track of time and get all pruney in the bathtub, such a one of a kind HILARIOUS, and deliciously insightful book.

    My friend was reading it a few months back, he read me excerpts, ahhh, so funny.



    Was it Mirna the minx?

    And I remember the black dude, his name started with a J, if I recall, he knew what was up, he was kind of the voice of moral reason.

    Sorry, read the book one year short of a decade ago.

    But, yeah, too good.

    I was also perturbed when I found out that David Foster Wallace offed himself.

    All these brilliant and creative and ridiculously insightful souls, gone by their own doing, I get it though, as much as I can say life is beautiful I can also say life is disgusting, futile and completely and utterly sucks.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  10. #110
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    Yes, value has value intrinsically. How can you "assign" value without something being valuable in the first place? You can't claim something exists without it inherently existing somewhere, it's a contradiction.

    You are making my head hurt.

    If one has to assign value, then that value doesn't exist INHERENTLY before said assignment. If it did, no assignment would be necessary.

    Why is this so hard to understand?

    If I call my dog Spike, that's a name I've assigned him. I didn't "discover" that his name was Spike. Spike is not an intrinsic property of Dog. It's just a label. That's all value is. The value of a value is equally arbitrary. It cannot be both arbitrarily assigned AND inherent.

    "It is very valuable" and "it has high value" mean the same thing. "It is a signifier" and "it has signified" do not mean the same thing.
    You keep getting bogged down in semantics.
    "It is very valuable" means nothing.

    There is no thing-in-itself that is "value". Neither does the thing-in-itself have "value". If I give value to something, by virtue of valuing it, that value does not become a property of the thing. It remains merely part of my own orientation towards the object. Therefore, the object can never be said to have value. Value is an action, a verb, not a noun. We talk about "my values" as if they were things in themselves, they are not. They are mental states towards certain other things. The value only persists as long as the valuer does, not as long as the object does. And they are not even inherent in the valuer, they are inherited or products of other states.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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