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  1. #81
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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  2. #82
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Well, this is where labor productivity comes into play. If a country has better capital machinery, more skilled labor, and better transport links and infrastructure, then production becomes more cost-effective there and thus labor in that country is more highly demanded, and better compensated. That's why people are better paid in Germany than they are in China, and better paid in China than, say, Haiti (I severely doubt that the Haitian plant moved to China because Chinese wages are cheaper -- Chinese factory workers get an average of 90 cents an hour, which is a helluva lot more than 14 cents a day).
    Oops, I admit I got that a little bit wrong... I was quoting from memory from a documentary I saw. I meant to say 14 cents an HOUR, and actually they pulled out and went to Costa Rica, not China. But still, the principle behind it remains the same.


    Bullcrap, Africa, India and America were poor as shit before European colonization. Europe itself was poor as shit back then, because it was not industrialized. Then came the 19th century, Europe implemented an industral policy successfully, and most of the rest of the world did not. The rest of the world was left behind.
    Poor, monetarily, yes. But money didn't exist (at least in the American Indian case) - they had natural resources to live off and did just a great job making a life for themselves. Then Europeans came in, decreed that since the Natives "weren't doing anything with the land anyway" (meaning they weren't farming), that they (Europeans) could rightfully claim it, and pushed the Natives off their land, thus depriving them of their resources. European standards (including currency) were then imposed, causing Natives to need currency to get by.

  3. #83
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle99 View Post
    Oops, I admit I got that a little bit wrong... I was quoting from memory from a documentary I saw. I meant to say 14 cents an HOUR, and actually they pulled out and went to Costa Rica, not China. But still, the principle behind it remains the same.
    Businesses are supposed to try to get as much productivity as possible at the lowest cost. Workers are supposed to get as much compensation as possible for as little effort. The interplay of the market determines where it ends up.

    Poor, monetarily, yes. But money didn't exist (at least in the American Indian case) - they had natural resources to live off and did just a great job making a life for themselves. Then Europeans came in, decreed that since the Natives "weren't doing anything with the land anyway" (meaning they weren't farming), that they (Europeans) could rightfully claim it, and pushed the Natives off their land, thus depriving them of their resources. European standards (including currency) were then imposed, causing Natives to need currency to get by.
    This makes it seem as if Native American life was easy and enjoyable. It was actually backbreaking work, and they were often near-starving and had to chase down migrating game all the time. The tribes also fought bloody battles over land and hunting claims. It was hardly Shangri-La. I am not excusing the behavior of settlers toward them, but don't mythologize the past. These people were poor, and not because Europeans said so.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  4. #84
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Businesses are supposed to try to get as much productivity as possible at the lowest cost. Workers are supposed to get as much compensation as possible for as little effort. The interplay of the market determines where it ends up.
    I agree with you about the borders, but not about the market. Seems we are looking toward the same end, but disagree over the best route.


    This makes it seem as if Native American life was easy and enjoyable. It was actually backbreaking work, and they were often near-starving and had to chase down migrating game all the time. The tribes also fought bloody battles over land and hunting claims. It was hardly Shangri-La. I am not excusing the behavior of settlers toward them, but don't mythologize the past. These people were poor, and not because Europeans said so.
    I'm not saying it was easy... but they're not any better off now. And they sure weren't any better off when Europeans gave them small pox, herded them onto reservations, mandated that the kids attend boarding school and sterilized a large part of the female Native population.

  5. #85
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle99 View Post
    I agree with you about the borders, but not about the market. Seems we are looking toward the same end, but disagree over the best route.
    The best way to make wealth widely available is through the market. You can't just take from some and give it to others and everyone is better off.


    I'm not saying it was easy... but they're not any better off now. And they sure weren't any better off when Europeans gave them small pox, herded them onto reservations, mandated that the kids attend boarding school and sterilized a large part of the female Native population.
    Smallpox was accidental, and schools aren't bad things. Again, I am not excusing the behavior of settlers. I am just saying that Native American life (like the lives of most people at the time) was nasty, brutish, and short.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #86
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Smallpox was accidental, and schools aren't bad things.
    Those schools were.

    Smallpox may have been accidental, but even if it was, it's still pretty sucky.

    But, back to the topic... my city (St Paul) has boycotted any travel to AZ on city funds, and I am glad.

  7. #87
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle99 View Post
    Those schools were.
    Let me be clearer: SCHOOLING isn't bad.


    Smallpox may have been accidental, but even if it was, it's still pretty sucky.
    No doubt. Introducing alcohol to the one culture in the world that didn't brew/distill it sucked, too.


    But, back to the topic... my city (St Paul) has boycotted any travel to AZ on city funds, and I am glad.
    Fortunately for me, I hate Greater Phoenix, anyway. One of the worst American cities I've visited. Sedona and Flagstaff were beautiful, though. More like Utah/Colorado in feel.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  8. #88
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Let me be clearer: SCHOOLING isn't bad.
    In general, no.

    No doubt. Introducing alcohol to the one culture in the world that didn't brew/distill it sucked, too.
    Yeah, that certainly hasn't been helpful!!


    Fortunately for me, I hate Greater Phoenix, anyway. One of the worst American cities I've visited. Sedona and Flagstaff were beautiful, though. More like Utah/Colorado in feel.
    I agree... I actually was born in Mesa and although we moved to MN when I was quite young, my grandmother lived in Phx for many years, so I spent a great deal of time there. Never cared for it much. But YES, Sedona and Flagstaff are lovely. And the Grand Canyon of course. I love the wide-open desert drive out to it... need to get there again someday.

  9. #89
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    The best way to make wealth widely available is through the market. You can't just take from some and give it to others and everyone is better off.
    I meant to respond to this too, that ideally I don't think wealth distribution is the way to go, either. I just think people at the bottom should be paid more than they are for the work they do, and people at the top paid less. In short, I'd like a worldwide system with a low income inequality quotient. But that's a topic for another thread.

  10. #90
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquarelle99 View Post
    Poor, monetarily, yes. But money didn't exist (at least in the American Indian case) - they had natural resources to live off and did just a great job making a life for themselves.
    I didn't mean monetarily, money is nothing but a means of exchange. Based on gross output of goods (rather than money), it's estimated that African and pre-Columbian American tribes churned out about $500 a year worth of production. They weren't really any better off than any rural tribe in Africa is today.

    Then Europeans came in, decreed that since the Natives "weren't doing anything with the land anyway" (meaning they weren't farming), that they (Europeans) could rightfully claim it, and pushed the Natives off their land, thus depriving them of their resources. European standards (including currency) were then imposed, causing Natives to need currency to get by.
    Again, currency is nothing but trade lubricant. It's how much they produce that matters.
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