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  1. #31
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Ridiculous. First, "illegal" immigrant implies the laws of the land have been broken. As the laws are made by the government of whichever state currently holds the land, there is no illegal to be had there. Second, Indians were no more native to the land than white settlers and their black slaves were. They just got there first.
    Well, by "native" you generally mean "who got there first and managed to give birth to the following generation in that place". Otherwise, the word "native" loses its meaning.

    Anyway, here in Italy we do lack automatic birthright citizenship - you can become Italian citizen either by being child of an Italian citizen (either parent), or by living here for at least 20 years. Obviously, this legislative structure generates paradoxical situations, where an 18-yo person (born and living in Italy) whose parents have been living here since hir birth will still be required to renew hir permit on a year-by-year basis.
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  2. #32
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Well, by "native" you generally mean "who got there first and managed to give birth to the following generation in that place". Otherwise, the word "native" loses its meaning.
    I define "native," somewhat loosely, as an ethnic group which has inhabited a given place long enough to legitimately call it home, to the exclusion of any ancestral homelands. White and black Americans fit the bill quite nicely.
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  3. #33
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Saying we all came from England is a bit much, isn't it? Even back in our colonial days we were a diverse mix of Europeans and Africans.

    After a certain number of years, it's impossible to say "go back to where you came from," anyway.
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  4. #34
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Saying we all came from England is a bit much, isn't it? Even back in our colonial days we were a diverse mix of Europeans and Africans.
    Yeah but strictly speaking, the US was of a much more homogeneously British stock than today. About 68% of the population was British (compared to a total 20% or so today).
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  5. #35
    Senior Member Lark's Avatar
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    Immigration is a post-modern problem now, its more possible than ever before to move around the world and there is a need for roots, the nations which are experiencing "flight" are liable to be suffering in some way too, not simply those with the problem of large numbers of individuals who will have to or refuse to assimilate.
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  6. #36
    Senior Member millerm277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    I'm a WASP Canadian moving to AZ next month for grad studies for the next 7 years. I'm already finding myself trying to get down the accent so I won't be flagged as a non-American, because it'd be annoying to be concerned about carrying my documents everywhere. This is getting ridiculous, and as a WASP it'll barely affect me. So if I procreate with an American sometime in the next 7 years while I'm in labour I'll have to drive to a neighbouring state to let my kid get their citizenship?
    Oh relax. Everyone likes Canadians. Even people in AZ will probably make a hockey/eskimo/snow joke and move on. You're not special. We like you, you're considered the 51st state.

    Secondly, while the other controversial law *may* hold up in court, this one most certainly will not. (and it isn't even a law yet). It doesn't take an idiot to realize that there isn't exactly much room for maneuvering on the 14th amendment on people born and raised here. This one won't make it to being enacted ever.

    AZ's other law (the papers one), just reinforces federal law...you are legally required to have your papers at all times, however inconvenient it may be to carry around a passport. (I think). Will it be enforced on you? Unlikely. It's unlikely anyone will even notice you're a foreigner, because you aren't the type of foreigner they care about, you're the kind they like to have as tourists.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    I define "native," somewhat loosely, as an ethnic group which has inhabited a given place long enough to legitimately call it home, to the exclusion of any ancestral homelands.
    Semantically this has zero meaning.

  8. #38
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Semantically this has zero meaning.
    I have to agree with Oberon here... how do yeu define 'long enough to legitimately call it home'?

    I moved from my aunt's house about 8 months ago. I live in an apartment. This is 'home' to me now. If I go back to my aunts', it's not "home" there anymore, it's just my aunt's place now. So... is it long enough for me to call it home?

    On a longer scale... how long do yeu have to leave yeur homeland behind for? A generation? Two? Three? There's no solid answer at all in yeur description, Aleksei.

    General consensus is that a child should not be punished for the sins of the parents. This was a barbaric mindset for thousands of years, and it's rather nice that we've since removed ourselves from it... oh wait no we haven't, because we're still holding children of today responsible for acts committed by their ancestors hundreds of years ago, such as blaming white kids for stealing land from the indians, who they probably don't even know much about other than from spaghetti westerns XD

    (I know I'm partially at fault here, ignore this =3 )

    The point is that we can go both ways on this... does being born there end it? Does living there long enough that yeu can't imagine going back to yeur 'native' country make it now 'home' for yeu, regardless of where yeu were born? Or do yeu never truly escape yeur ancestry?

    There's really no 'true' answer to the question... I'd just as soon state that yeu may be where yeu are now as home, but yeu can't forget yeur roots. In the case of the american people, they are not american from the get-go, and everyone on the continent immigrated from SOMEWHERE at some time, even the so-called natives. As such, technically the 'first' ones there should get first dibs; ie the first nations people, or indians/inuit/etc.

    Obviously that's not how the world works, but whotever.

    In the end, the only thing that matters, is not my opinion, or an ideal compromise even, but whot is legally binding in that country. And whot's legal there, is that the states' 14th amendment states that being born there is all yeu need, and further laws state that an individual state, such as AZ, does not have the authority to supersede the constitution.

    That point aside, however, I still think the people of Arizona should really realize that their grandparents, and further back, came to their country as illegal immigrants themselves, and they are the children of such, even if several generations removed. They aren't really any different than the children of a current day illegal immigrant.

    People are so apt to find differences in each other, that they seem to flat out refuse to accept any commonality amongst themselves. Just so they have an excuse to beat each other's face in or hate each other.

    If they saw a similarity between themselves and the immigrants, they wouldn't be able to hate them as much as they do.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    I have to agree with Oberon here... how do yeu define 'long enough to legitimately call it home'?
    For me, I'd say if you were born there you are a native. No one gets to choose where they are born.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #40
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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