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  1. #101
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    Whot do banks PRODUCE? Nothing. Whot about the service industry? Nothing. Lawyers? Real estate agents? Government? The military? Oh yeah, NOTHING.
    Information, efficiency, time, etc.

  2. #102
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedalus View Post
    Argh, i quoted a few lines more than i should have. my bad

    my reply was to this line in particular
    Actually, it's very difficult to tell if that statement is true or false from your graph because it shows percentages. As we know the amount of "wealth" has vastly increased since the 1500s so showing it by who gets the largest piece of the pie is unhelpful, because it's entirely possible that these places have the same or near the same amount of material wealth throughout, or even more wealth throughout, but other places just increased their wealth at a much faster rate. Also, with Africa, you can't even see Africa on this graph -- it's lumped with "other countries," which I can only assume includes Eastern Europe the Middle East, Southeast Asia, Australia, Canada, etc...
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  3. #103
    Senior Member millerm277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    Whot do banks PRODUCE? Nothing. Whot about the service industry? Nothing. Lawyers? Real estate agents? Government? The military? Oh yeah, NOTHING.

    These account for probably 3/4 of the USA's actual 'money'... they don't actually "produce" very much. Same with most first world countries these days, with the possible exception of canada with a ton of natural resources and too few people and too small a military to chew through as much, but even then, the production is low.
    *cough cough cough* US manufacturing export orders hit 20-year high - CSMonitor.com

    We produce a lot, but US manufacturing has simply moved up the wealth ladder. There are a great number more manufacturers in this country than most people realize, the catch is....since we don't have the benefit of cheap labor, most factories are quite technologically advanced, and as a result, don't necessarily employ a lot of people.
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  4. #104
    Senior Member Daedalus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Actually, it's very difficult to tell if that statement is true or false from your graph because it shows percentages. As we know the amount of "wealth" has vastly increased since the 1500s so showing it by who gets the largest piece of the pie is unhelpful, because it's entirely possible that these places have the same or near the same amount of material wealth throughout, or even more wealth throughout, but other places just increased their wealth at a much faster rate. Also, with Africa, you can't even see Africa on this graph -- it's lumped with "other countries," which I can only assume includes Eastern Europe the Middle East, Southeast Asia, Australia, Canada, etc...

    Actually it is very easy to see how this graph proves my point.

    the claim was that

    Africa, India and America were poor as shit before European colonization.
    According to the data, China and India had the largest percentage of the world GDP till the advent of the colonial era.

    One cannot define "wealth" by today's standards. Wealth is defined by the standards of any given date. 10$ now might not buy much, but even as little as 100 years ago, 10$ was a huge sum.

    This is why % is a better gauge of the wealth of nations than numbers, because with %, we are looking at how big a piece of the global pie every nation has. Compare the size of the pie over time, and you can clearly see the trend, of global wealth being re-allocated.

    to say that "wealth" has increased now is a non-issue because its a known fact, and has nothing to do with the statement im disproving. Furthermore, unless there is some huge plague...nuclear war..or some other calamity, world wealth is going to increase anyways. Therefore the best way of comparing the wealth of nations is by looking at the % of the global GDP

    I'm talking about India and China in particular and how their % of global GDP shrinks in concert with European colonialism while the GDP% of Europe expands. This is exactly the opposite of of what Alexei said.
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  5. #105
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    So if someone in some part of the world comes up with more efficient farming techniques while another "wealthier" side of the world does not, which increases the percentage of the first country's wealth... that means that the second country got "poorer"? I don't think so.

    Also, China was not included in that statement, and what about the Americas? they seem to have gotten richer with colonization if you just look at the graph, but of course the graph doesn't tell the whole story.

    You need to look at adjusted sums of money, not percentages.
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  6. #106
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    In an ideal world... yes.

    In reality? No.

    Whot do banks PRODUCE? Nothing. Whot about the service industry? Nothing. Lawyers? Real estate agents? Government? The military? Oh yeah, NOTHING.
    Necessary human services. Picture an economy devoid of a place to store money and services to efficiently move capital, without haircuts, restaurants, transportation logistics, or defense. It'd be chaos.

    I do believe the banking industry and the military are both overbloated in the US, but a society cannot run without a service industry (though the insane idea that it can subsist on it doesn't fly either, of course).
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  7. #107
    Senior Member Daedalus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    So if someone in some part of the world comes up with more efficient farming techniques while another "wealthier" side of the world does not, which increases the percentage of the first country's wealth... that means that the second country got "poorer"? I don't think so.

    This is what GDP (gross national product) is all about. If a farmer comes up with a new efficient farming technique, then it will in turn increase the productivity of his farm....which in turn increases the food yield/tax yield of the country, and in turn the GDP of the nation.

    furthermore, when the GDP of a nation increases, it need not mean the GDPs of the other nations are getting lesser..not at all! but this nation, with a bigger GDP now has a bigger % of the global GDP spread.


    lets look at this example


    old GDP | old GDP% | new GDP | new GDP%
    ________________________________________
    country A's GDP = 7$ | 28% | 10$ | 34.5%
    country B's GDP = 15$ | 60% | 15$ | 51.7%
    country C's GDP = 3$ | 12% | 4$ | 13.8%


    ^^ that is self explanatory
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksei View Post
    Ridiculous. First, "illegal" immigrant implies the laws of the land have been broken. As the laws are made by the government of whichever state currently holds the land, there is no illegal to be had there. Second, Indians were no more native to the land than white settlers and their black slaves were. They just got there first.
    First Nation's people got here first, and as such the europeans tried to bargain with them for land. Meaning they recognized the land wasn't theirs. However, many of the First Nations people were killed if they didn't give it over. Either way, it was Indian land. There's really no question about that.

  9. #109
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Why exactly was it Indian land?
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  10. #110
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedalus View Post
    Actually it is very easy to see how this graph proves my point.

    the claim was that



    According to the data, China and India had the largest percentage of the world GDP till the advent of the colonial era.

    One cannot define "wealth" by today's standards. Wealth is defined by the standards of any given date. 10$ now might not buy much, but even as little as 100 years ago, 10$ was a huge sum.

    This is why % is a better gauge of the wealth of nations than numbers, because with %, we are looking at how big a piece of the global pie every nation has. Compare the size of the pie over time, and you can clearly see the trend, of global wealth being re-allocated.

    to say that "wealth" has increased now is a non-issue because its a known fact, and has nothing to do with the statement im disproving. Furthermore, unless there is some huge plague...nuclear war..or some other calamity, world wealth is going to increase anyways. Therefore the best way of comparing the wealth of nations is by looking at the % of the global GDP

    I'm talking about India and China in particular and how their % of global GDP shrinks in concert with European colonialism while the GDP% of Europe expands. This is exactly the opposite of of what Alexei said.

    That is a really terrible way to compare wealth. First of all, countries do not have the wealth. Their citizens do. Secondly, you can get richer, even significantly richer, and end up with a much smaller piece of "the pie" (bad metaphor, since the amount of wealth increases every year) if other countries outstrip your growth.
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