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  1. #11
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    One of the most frustrating aspects to this is the implied exploitable caste system we're developing. Developing? No--it's just moved from one group to another group. Nothing has changed.

    Now I will go argue on the side of immigration reform for a while.

    This is such a complex, emotional issue, I just lose all sense of solidity.

    Edit: No more from me on this issue. Over-E-ed.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  2. #12
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Yeah, I only see it from the poor, white, American citizen's perspective, not an immigrant's or a person of color's. It wasn't too many years ago when Don and I basically had to choose whether we wanted to buy food or have medical insurance. I don't see illegal immigrants as the enemy or the problem so much as a fellow victim of exploitation and a symptom of a much greater problem.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #13
    Member FranG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Big business owns the government, so in most cases, their interests are one and the same. Big business wants low wages, so despite the security and other problems, we don't stop illegal immigration. If we were just being generous, we'd make it easier to immigrate legally and to gain citizenship. As it is, businesses have non-citizens to exploit, which allows them to also pay citizens lower wages, and the taxpayers take up the slack through public assistance programs because not only are the workers, both citizens and non-citizens, paid too little to survive on, they are either not offered health insurance or cannot afford it when it is available.

    Are we saying the same thing?
    Yes we are my friend
    I live the life daily; I die the death nightly

  4. #14
    Senior Member sdalek's Avatar
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    I'm sorry but here's my two cents worth:

    Illegals are immoral and unethical, here's why:

    1. They willfully and with malice of forethought disobey the immigration laws of the United States.
    2. They willfully and with malice of forethought evade the police enforcing the laws of the United States.
    3. They enter the United States with a sense of entitlement.
    4. Their selfish behavior attacks the infrastructure of the United States and jeopardize the rights, health, and safety of legal residents of the United States.
    5. They attack the sovereignty of the Unites States for their own selfish interests.

    How can I trust an illegal immigrant if they cannot behave ethically and morally? I acknowledge that they may have hard lives and few opportunities at home however that does not excuse them doing the right thing. Doing the right thing is hard, like obeying speed limits, not taking illicit drugs, not cheating on taxes, etc, but we have established rules of behavior to protect the social fabric of our society. If others like my mother and my wife's mother can obey them, so can they. This is a case where Utilitarianism must take precedence for the good of the society.

    Businesses that exploit illegal immigrants and governments that cave to these businesses are also unethical and immoral for much the same reason. While I don't begrudge a business' rights to reduce costs by using whatever cost effective means are at hand, that does not excuse them from doing the right thing either. They not only commit treason against the United States, they also attack the sovereignty of the United States as well as the social contract between businesses and workers.

  5. #15
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdalek View Post
    I'm sorry but here's my two cents worth:
    Not to comment on your views... but I find this a very interesting type difference. Thank you for your post It always is good to be reminded of the other side...

  6. #16
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
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    Here's my two cents:

    The US Government, under the leadership of James Polk and John Tyler, was immoral and unethical . . . and here's why:

    1. They willfully and with malice of forethought disobeyed the immigration laws of Mexico.
    2. They willfully and with malice of forethought evaded the police enforcing the laws of Mexico.
    3. They entered the territories of Mexico with a sense of entitlement.
    4. Their selfish behavior attacked the infrastructure of Mexico and jeopardized the rights, health, and safety of legal residents of Mexico.
    5. They attacked the sovereignty of Mexico for their own selfish interests.

  7. #17
    Senior Member sdalek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    Here's my two cents:

    The US Government, under the leadership of James Polk and John Tyler, was immoral and unethical . . . and here's why:

    1. They willfully and with malice of forethought disobeyed the immigration laws of Mexico.
    2. They willfully and with malice of forethought evaded the police enforcing the laws of Mexico.
    3. They entered the territories of Mexico with a sense of entitlement.
    4. Their selfish behavior attacked the infrastructure of Mexico and jeopardized the rights, health, and safety of legal residents of Mexico.
    5. They attacked the sovereignty of Mexico for their own selfish interests.
    Good points from history. Should we accept what I have labeled as their unethical behavior now based on wrongs done in the past? Would they not be better served by proving that they are better people than those back then by rising above this all and doing the right thing?

  8. #18
    Senior Member sdalek's Avatar
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    Default How do we define this?

    Haight, you have a point. I failed to define the terms of my statement. I am basing it on the present, not looking into the past for previous wrongs. Otherwise I would still be responsible for any atrocities committed by my grandfather.
    Last edited by sdalek; 05-01-2007 at 05:54 PM. Reason: spelling error

  9. #19
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdalek View Post
    Good points from history. Should we accept what I have labeled as their unethical behavior now based on wrongs done in the past? Would they not be better served by proving that they are better people than those back then by rising above this all and doing the right thing?
    I have a better question. If someone takes your house without your consent, and through your desperation, you decide to break in and take a donut off the counter because your choices and resources have been severely limited . . . would you consider that an unethical act?

    Quote Originally Posted by sdalek View Post
    Haight, you have a point. I failed to define the terms of my statement. I am basing it on the present, not looking into the past for previous wrongs. Otherwise I would still be responsible for any atrocities committed by my grandfather.
    Well, I don't know what atrocities your father has committed, but you could be a beneficiary of those atrocities and see it within yourself to right what he has wronged - so to speak. But, I guess, that all depends on the circumstances.

  10. #20
    Senior Member sdalek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    I have a better question. If someone takes your house without your consent, and through your desperation, you decide to break in and take a donut off the counter because your choices and resources have been severely limited . . . would you consider that an unethical act?
    Under what circumstances is my house taken without consent? Eminent domain situation? Under what circumstances am I desperate? Am I incapable of growing my own food? Can I not move elsewhere where laws regarding property ownership are respected and enforced? If you referring in a roundabout fashion to American Imperialism or Colonialism, the problem then is that at that time it may have been an accepted principle and therefore not unethical.

    In the case of personal property, I would be compelled to fight back to regain my property by 1) using the force of law to recognize that a wrong had been committed against me and the law needs to redress the wrong and punish those responsible, 2) provided that I can effectively use force to regain what is rightfully mine without endangering others not immediately involved in this problem, fight to take it back AND elicit popular opinion to support me, which immigrants may be doing via their protests today.

    However, this oversimplifies the case. I think we are addressing the issue of sovereignties of nations. National policy set today requires that immigrants come through an approval process to be granted the right to enter US borders, thus they become legal, or to be accepted as refugees, thus also becoming legal, based on today's standards. By not doing this it becomes immoral and unethical. Then again, how do we know that there isn't a foreign policy towards the US which encourages illegal immigration to the US as a method of subversive war in order to reciprocate for wrongs done in the past? Then it becomes a case where actions are unethical from my definition but ethical from theirs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    Well, I don't know what atrocities your father has committed, but you could be a beneficiary of those atrocities and see it within yourself to right what he has wronged - so to speak. But, I guess, that all depends on the circumstances.
    In this case it was the mere case of being a German still having to live with post-WWII American attitudes towards ALL Germans and their descendants. I was never permitted to live that down by my classmates in elementary school and well on into Jr High. In the eyes of my peers at the time, just being part German was atrocity enough, I was by relationship still assumed to be harboring Nazi ideals - see the US attitudes towards Japanese descendant Americans during and after WWII.

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