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  1. #71
    Junior Member spacab's Avatar
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    May 2010


    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    This is nothing I haven't heard before, and before it was unrealistic. Now it is unrealistic. It always be unrealistic.

    I am so tired of the government being a scapegoat and a bête noire, especially when it takes the blame off of guilty parties.
    I don't understand what you mean here. If it's not the fault of the government for creating an unstable/unrealistic economic system, than who is responsible? Who are these "guilty parties"?

  2. #72
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Nov 2007
    One sx/sp


    Quote Originally Posted by spacab View Post
    I don't understand what you mean here. If it's not the fault of the government for creating an unstable/unrealistic economic system, than who is responsible?
    It doesn't take the government to do that. All it takes are people doing business with each other. Unregulated business simply refers to a situation in which the people who control a business can do absolutely anything they want to serve their own interests, and that is problematic. That migh include lying and concealing (which was a big factor in how we wound up with this economic crisis). That might involve using predatory actions to remove other businesses instead of out-competing them in quality. That might mean colluding with other businesses to exploit the consumer and labor base. These are all things that harm the quality of production and services, or in other words, they make things worst for most people, at the benefit of the few who run these businesses. In this case, the only "regulation" comes from how buisnesses manipulate each other (so in other words, it would be to business as feudalism was to civics).

    Those things happen without the government's help. In fact, they will almost inevitably happen, without a government. But whie such a state may exist in the presence of, and even with the assistence of the government's help, they can actually be combatted by the government. The only way this kind of malignant business can be dealt with is the oversight of an entity that is not being driven by the same motives that businesses are (the most obvious being the government).

    So my point is, there isn't a negative "system" being "created". I'm saying the default way business turns-out leaves an enormous amount to be desired by a society, and that's why government reguation ever gets called for the in the first place. The natural, inherent "system" of business is the insufficient one.

    Quote Originally Posted by spacab View Post
    Who are these "guilty parties"?
    Corrupt business owners. In some ways they may have been aided by the government, but you should understand that they would have done what they had done even if they didn't get the government's help. But putting all the blame on the government, you are taking the heat off of both these particular corrupt people, as well the inherent flaws of an unregulated commerce in and of itself.
    Go to sleep, iguana.

    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  3. #73
    Senior Member dga's Avatar
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    Apr 2008


    I spent a couple days this week doing audio for a conference of high level finance ceos and it was startling to hear that none of them knew what the cause of the dip was and that in general they figured it was market manipulation. Should hte result have been due to a fat finger, someone would have come forward and said so.

    It was a conference on market regulation, with participants from regulatory companies, stock exchanges, brokerage firms, etc.

  4. #74
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    May 2007


    Quote Originally Posted by spacab View Post
    Are you just asserting this for the hell of it? Why would it have caused problems? Because the system is a mess?
    I think you assume that when a business prospers, society always benefits. That idea is flawed. When business is not properly regulated, a business can prosper engaging in activities that harm society. The purpose of regulation is to limit business activities to those that benefit society.

    What do you believe is the purpose of capital markets?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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