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  1. #391
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I suppose so. I guess nobody gets into college because they are clever, only because they are Jewish or impress the dean by saying they are Native American/Black. That's kind of sad.
    That would be sad too.
    There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

  2. #392
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaunward View Post
    I felt it better explained my reasoning, but okay, I'll bite. The majority owes nothing to the minority. If the majority of things are produced to appeal to the majority of consumers, this sounds reasonable.
    Your reasoning is still abstract.

    How about we start with the fact that the majority of white people in the US get screwed over by the system as we can see by 30 years of stagnated wages and attacks onw orking conditions and public services, indebtedness, civil liberties, living standards, etc., and that therefore whites have an objective interest in unity with black stuggles against the status quo, rarher than in uniting with the ruling class and perpetuating the system that screws them over.

    that would seem a more constructive approach to poltiics than dealign with abstract terms like "majority" and "minority". I mean, it depends what definitioons we use. The workers are also a "majority", so I could just turn your own abstract formula quoted above, right back at you.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

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  3. #393
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    I suppose so. I guess nobody gets into college because they are clever, only because they are Jewish or impress the dean by saying they are Native American/Black. That's kind of sad.
    On what planet does this happen?
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  4. #394
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    On what planet does this happen?
    Doesn't happen so much that I'm aware... but look at the bursaries and freebie giveaway loans and grants...

    Virtually all of them go to minorities.

    If yeu're a black/native woman yeu're guaranteed at least 3+ grants worth thousands of dollars no matter which field yeu go to study for. If yeu're a white male, yeu get absolutely nothing unless yeu are the pinnacle of perfection in yeur grades.

    There is an advantage to being a poor minority in terms of post secondary education... yeu have to pay for virtually none of yeur schooling, since it's all covered for yeu for the most part if yeu bother to look for the benefits available.

    If yeu're a middle class white male, yeu have the single hardest time affording college/university due to the lack of bursaries and grants out there, but don't have enough money on yeur own to afford it either unless yeur parents cover it, which's just "assumed" to happen.

    Noticed that when I was going through the list of grants and things, how almost all of them were dependent upon being 'born' rather than having anything to do with yeur schoolwork, which really annoyed me to see that. At whot point can we just say "alright, we are seriously being racist bastages now".

    If I get rich enough, which I doubt will ever happen, but if I do, I'd want to make a grant for covering those who slip through the cracks like that, because it's really not fair to be discriminating against people because of the colour of their skin... even if it's white.

    Though I'd probably get in seriously bad public relations for such, despite the validity of it, so I suppose it's just as well I won't likely ever be rich.

  5. #395
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    There is an advantage to being a poor minority in terms of post secondary education... yeu have to pay for virtually none of yeur schooling, since it's all covered for yeu for the most part if yeu bother to look for the benefits available.
    Surely this is judged by income and not ehtnicity? It was in my case, I got full loan and bursary, nobody asked my ethnicity, just income. Do you have any evidenmce at all that they grant bursaries and loans based on ethnicity? That just sounds like a conspiracy theory that the "white nationalists" would put around.

    Regarding the middle classes, I agree, university should be free for everyone, and the middle classes get screwed - but nowehere near as much as the poor. You can see firstly by the fact that universities are still dominated by the upper classes, after them come the middle classes, and after them, a very small number of working classes.

    You also have to remember the fact that middle class people tend to live in areas with much better schools, or can afford private schools. Try going to an inner city state school, and getting to uni, as opposed to getting into uni fromt he background of a private school or a suburban state school.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  6. #396
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Surely this is judged by income and not ehtnicity? It was in my case, I got full loan and bursary, nobody asked my ethnicity, just income. Do you have any evidenmce at all that they grant bursaries and loans based on ethnicity? That just sounds like a conspiracy theory that the "white nationalists" would put around.
    Putter around the independent scholarships, there are a lot of them based on ethnicity. Also, I'm pretty sure Bakke v. California has made everyone paranoid, because the Supreme Court justices ruled that race "could be a factor" in the admissions process but "should not be a deciding factor". I think anybody who thinks about this thinks that middle-class/upper-class minorities are given the advantage here because of the class they are likely to have better previous education yet are going to be looked at differently just because of the race and not economic factors.

    Oh yeah, and if you're Asian you're never getting into college. This is what all the Asians say, because they are being doubly discriminated against -- once for not being White, next for not being one of the protected minorities in Affirmative Action.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  7. #397
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Putter around the independent scholarships, there are a lot of them based on ethnicity. Also, I'm pretty sure Bakke v. California has made everyone paranoid, because the Supreme Court justices ruled that race "could be a factor" in the admissions process but "should not be a deciding factor". I think anybody who thinks about this thinks that middle-class/upper-class minorities are given the advantage here because of the class they are likely to have better previous education yet are going to be looked at differently just because of the race and not economic factors.

    Oh yeah, and if you're Asian you're never getting into college. This is what all the Asians say, because they are being doubly discriminated against -- once for not being White, next for not being one of the protected minorities in Affirmative Action.
    So in other words, there is no evidence that bursaries and loans are decided based on ethnicity?

    You may well be right about Asians. the answer would surely be better funding for universities, free education, and more places, no? Or is it "utopian" to suggest something that existed in much of the west for the greater part of the post-war era?
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  8. #398
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    So in other words, there is no evidence that bursaries and loans are decided based on ethnicity?

    You may well be right about Asians. the answer would surely be better funding for universities, free education, and more places, no? Or is it "utopian" to suggest something that existed in much of the west for the greater part of the post-war era?
    There is some evidence, though there is more evidence that this has to do with the acceptance rate more than loans.

    Historically, there has been a gap, which I think really most people are complaining about: rich people could afford good private universities, and if you were poor and somehow got to be smart enough with your resources, they were very generous in scholarships to you. Middle class people, even if they got in, would not be able to go because tuition would be their whole family's income and the university would not give them a damn thing. However, still, the absolute best way to get into a high-grade private university is for a relative to have gone there, making, yes, discrimination true, but it's not racist discrimination.

    As for your other point, we're working on it. Maybe. If Congress can get up off their asses, which they won't... goddammit.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  9. #399
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Historically, there has been a gap, which I think really most people are complaining about: rich people could afford good private universities, and if you were poor and somehow got to be smart enough with your resources, they were very generous in scholarships to you. Middle class people, even if they got in, would not be able to go because tuition would be their whole family's income and the university would not give them a damn thing. However, still, the absolute best way to get into a high-grade private university is for a relative to have gone there, making, yes, discrimination true, but it's not racist discrimination.
    I see your point, but I think it's not quite true. The universities are much more filled up witht hte middle classes than the poor. I gave some of the reasons why a few posts back.

    I think the middle classes, rather than resenting those poorerthan them and ethnic minorities, need to realize who is really screwing them over, and start actually thinking about constructive alliances for change with the working class and poor (in fact most "middle class" people are actually working class but don't know it). Sadly though misanthropy and self-pity seem to be more "fun" to a lot of them.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  10. #400
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    I see your point, but I think it's not quite true. The universities are much more filled up witht hte middle classes than the poor. I gave some of the reasons why a few posts back.
    Well if you're talking about state universities, then yes, the middle class has completely taken over them. I was talking about upscale private universities, which are primarily filled with rich people. This is comparing the University of Minnesota to Yale, see.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

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