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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Actually they did it because they were ignorant and often lied to. People wanted the fuck out of many of those early "valid decisions" between worker and employer, which was why unions had to be formed. Unions weren't formed by the government - they were formed by people who were like, "fuck this, my 8 year old shouldn't be working in a coal mine."
    They were also started by white people who didn't like that freed slaves were willing to work for less money than they were. Self-interest is universal. It's not just "greedy tycoons" who want to get as much as they can. Nor is it wrong to want to get as much as you can, depending on how you go about getting it.


    Isn't it fun to be delusional?
    Nothing delusional about it. If I succeed in my chosen career path, I will have the opportunity to make millions of dollars per year. That is nice, but the other part is better: to be responsible for directing the fortunes of a company that has massive cultural and economic impact. That is a major responsibility, but the opportunity to change people's lives is very real.


    Oh, so you assume that because I live in West Virginia and am currently enrolled in university that I've never been anywhere? I'm 32 years old and I've traveled quite a bit. I've lived in Southern California, you know, and one of the primary things I noticed there is a cultural determination to believe that they are the center of the universe, which permeates out into the rest of America to be sure, but it's so intensified there as to be nauseating.
    No, I am assume you are ignorant because you assume to know what you are talking about when you do not. I don't give a crap where you live. You don't know me, so don't make idiotic blanket assumptions. I've traveled outside of the United States on several occasions. I have friends of different races and nationalities and sexual orientations. I've attended a community college, a state university, and an Ivy League school. I appreciate that I have had amazing opportunities in life, but I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth. I had a full academic scholarship to a private high school, I had high SAT scores and grades and a mother who worked in a university health system, so I was able to study under world-class professors. I don't live in a bubble, and I resent that implication.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    They were also started by white people who didn't like that freed slaves were willing to work for less money than they were. Self-interest is universal. It's not just "greedy tycoons" who want to get as much as they can. Nor is it wrong to want to get as much as you can, depending on how you go about getting it.
    We aren't animals. This whole concept of self-interested people wanting to get as much they can isn't some wonderful philosophical ideal to aspire to. But we're going to disagree there, obviously.




    Nothing delusional about it. If I succeed in my chosen career path, I will have the opportunity to make millions of dollars per year. That is nice, but the other part is better: to be responsible for directing the fortunes of a company that has massive cultural and economic impact. That is a major responsibility, but the opportunity to change people's lives is very real.
    So you want power. I still don't see how that implicitly makes the world a better place just because you run a corporation. McDonald's has massive cultural and economic impact and I don't think they make the world a better place.




    No, I am assume you are ignorant because you assume to know what you are talking about when you do not. I don't give a crap where you live. You don't know me, so don't make idiotic blanket assumptions. I've traveled outside of the United States on several occasions. I have friends of different races and nationalities and sexual orientations. I've attended a community college, a state university, and an Ivy League school. I appreciate that I have had amazing opportunities in life, but I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth. I had a full academic scholarship to a private high school, I had high SAT scores and grades and a mother who worked in a university health system, so I was able to study under world-class professors. I don't live in a bubble, and I resent that implication.
    But you think that sweat-shops are great opportunities for people in third world countries...

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    We aren't animals. This whole concept of self-interested people wanting to get as much they can isn't some wonderful philosophical ideal to aspire to. But we're going to disagree there, obviously.
    Self-interest has helped to raise the standards of living throughout the world throughout history. It's a crucial component to being human.


    So you want power. I still don't see how that implicitly makes the world a better place just because you run a corporation. McDonald's has massive cultural and economic impact and I don't think they make the world a better place.
    I hate their food, but McDonald's has provided temporary sustenance and happiness for billions of people, and jobs for hundreds of thousands, if not millions. Crappy as their food may be, McDonald's has clearly made the world a better place. Their economic impact has been massive in the past 50 years. If you took McDonald's away, the world literally would have been poorer.


    But you think that sweat-shops are great opportunities for people in third world countries...
    For many people, it's their best option. People in Third World countries currently are going through what happened in the West 100-150 years ago. They actually are lucky compared to poor folks back in the day, because things like medicine and global trade have advanced (because of free markets and the profit motive), and they will almost certainly move up in socioeconomic status more quickly than many did in the past. That is, of course, assuming that their governments don't decide to shut their countries off from the rest of the world. Did you ever stop to think that maybe you bought a line without really investigating what is going on in these parts of the world?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Self-interest has helped to raise the standards of living throughout the world throughout history. It's a crucial component to being human.
    So is interdependence. Blind self-interest may be component, but it isn't the big picture.




    I hate their food, but McDonald's has provided temporary sustenance and happiness for billions of people, and jobs for hundreds of thousands, if not millions. Crappy as their food may be, McDonald's has clearly made the world a better place. Their economic impact has been massive in the past 50 years. If you took McDonald's away, the world literally would have been poorer.
    Can I post this in my Live Journal so that others may share in my laughter?




    For many people, it's their best option. People in Third World countries currently are going through what happened in the West 100-150 years ago. They actually are lucky compared to poor folks back in the day, because things like medicine and global trade have advanced (because of free markets and the profit motive), and they will almost certainly move up in socioeconomic status more quickly than many did in the past. That is, of course, assuming that their governments don't decide to shut their countries off from the rest of the world.
    It scares me that you can rationalize treating people like crap, since it's not as bad as what it could be, that makes it ok? Five cents is good enough for an Indian right? yuk yuk yuk

    Did you ever stop to think that maybe you bought a line without really investigating what is going on in these parts of the world?
    Did you ever stop to think that maybe YOU bought a line without really investigating what is going on in these parts of the world?

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    So is interdependence. Blind self-interest may be component, but it isn't the big picture.
    Interdependence is another facet of global capitalism. People can't do/create everything they want, so they must traded with others. Voluntary exchange is a vast and complex system. Self-interest is the motivation, cooperative effort and voluntary exchange are the vehicles.


    Can I post this in my Live Journal so that others may share in my laughter?
    Can I laugh at you, since everything I wrote is true, and you have made no attempt to dispute any of it? It's a fact. The world would literally be poorer (i.e., world GDP would be lower, unemployment would be higher, tax bases and charity donations smaller) without McDonald's, or Nike, or Time Warner, or Apple, or Wal-Mart. They are important to the continued improvement in living standards throughout the world.


    It scares me that you can rationalize treating people like crap, since it's not as bad as what it could be, that makes it ok? Five cents is good enough for an Indian right? yuk yuk yuk
    When did I rationalize treating people like crap? I don't get paid enough to get by for what I do right now, but I don't blame my employer for paying me what they do. It's pretty easy and they're rather nice. Paying the lowest wage that a productive worker will accept is what businesses are SUPPOSED to do. The employer (buyer) wants to pay as little as possible to the employee (seller) for the good or service offered (productive work). Everyone who conducts economic activity in the world does this every day. You would rather pay $5 for a sandwich than $10 for the same sandwich. The fundamentals of market behavior are simple, because it's about human nature.


    Did you ever stop to think that maybe YOU bought a line without really investigating what is going on in these parts of the world?
    Answering a question with a question is the refuge of someone who has nothing left to add to an argument. I've studied the nature of the global economy extensively, thank you very much. I don't just accept as gospel what an academic or a website or a documentary film claims. I'd like you to demonstrate how the current situation of a Third World factory worker is any worse that that of a First World factory worker in the 19th- to early-20th Centuries, and/or that living standards worsened due to industrialization. I defy you to do it.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Interdependence is another facet of global capitalism. People can't do/create everything they want, so they must traded with others. Voluntary exchange is a vast and complex system. Self-interest is the motivation, cooperative effort and voluntary exchange are the vehicles.
    Self-interest is not always the motivation. There have been entire successful cultures based in the history of the world based upon interdependence, and this is pre-Marxism, pre-Captalism.




    Can I laugh at you, since everything I wrote is true, and you have made no attempt to dispute any of it? It's a fact. The world would literally be poorer (i.e., world GDP would be lower, unemployment would be higher, tax bases and charity donations smaller) without McDonald's, or Nike, or Time Warner, or Apple, or Wal-Mart. They are important to the continued improvement in living standards throughout the world.
    You believe some stuff. That doesn't make it true. Particularly with your bias toward glorious capitalism. It's weird that you're a liberatarian, because both of the libertarians that I'm close to IRL absolutely fucking hate mega-corps like McDonald's, Wal-Mart, and Nike, and want to move toward small business so that there is truly capitalist market, and not some sort of unified market dictatorship.




    When did I rationalize treating people like crap? I don't get paid enough to get by for what I do right now, but I don't blame my employer for paying me what they do. It's pretty easy and they're rather nice.
    Everyone's situation isn't like yours. I think that would be obvious to most rational adults, but...


    Paying the lowest wage that a productive worker will accept is what businesses are SUPPOSED to do. The employer (buyer) wants to pay as little as possible to the employee (seller) for the good or service offered (productive work).
    Again, this is what you believe is right. What they're "supposed to do". How very SJ of you to say.

    Everyone who conducts economic activity in the world does this every day.
    untrue. exaggerated. hyperbolic blanket statement.




    Answering a question with a question is the refuge of someone who has nothing left to add to an argument.
    No, actually it's a form of education used by ancient philosophers.


    I've studied the nature of the global economy extensively, thank you very much. I don't just accept as gospel what an academic or a website or a documentary film claims.
    Oh honey I've read books about Ron Paul, too.

    I'd like you to demonstrate how the current situation of a Third World factory worker is any worse that that of a First World factory worker in the 19th- to early-20th Centuries.
    Current conditions are approximately same, which is BAD. I never said the conditions of a first world factory worker in 19th/20th century was GOOD. That is part of my point.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Self-interest is not always the motivation. There have been entire successful cultures based in the history of the world based upon interdependence, and this is pre-Marxism, pre-Captalism.
    These cultures were also brutal, poverty-stricken, and had no concept of individual rights. That is no culture worth living in.


    You believe some stuff. That doesn't make it true. Particularly with your bias toward glorious capitalism. It's weird that you're a liberatarian, because both of the libertarians that I'm close to IRL absolutely fucking hate mega-corps like McDonald's, Wal-Mart, and Nike, and want to move toward small business so that there is truly capitalist market, and not some sort of unified market dictatorship.
    Disprove what I wrote.

    McDonald's Corp.:

    Market Cap = $64.39 billion

    Net sales/revenue (FY2008) = $23.52 billion

    Earnings Before Interest and Taxes (EBIT) = $6.57 billion

    Income tax = $1.84 billion

    Net Income Available to Common = $4.31 billion

    Number of employees worldwide = 400,000

    Amount of money donated through RMHC Scholarship Program for college students = $29 million


    Yeah, if McDonald's disappeared, nothing bad would happen. Do we have a jerking-off-motion smiley on this site anywhere?

    BTW, what exactly are "truly capitalist markets' and "market dictatorship?" Also, what kind of libertarian wants to "move toward small business?" One of the major points of libertarianism is that the market should decide whether companies succeed or not. You can't be biased toward one type or size. You can disagree with what some companies do (the Big 3 auto companies are mismanaged, tax-stealing disgraces, for instance), but libertarianism doesn't include a preference for some people over others. That's kinda the point.


    Everyone's situation isn't like yours. I think that would be obvious to most rational adults, but...
    What does this even mean? I provided an example to illustrate my point that I don't get paid "enough," but it's completely and totally fair, given the work I do and the skill level it takes. Lots of people can do my crappy job, therefore it doesn't pay very well. That's totally fair.


    Again, this is what you believe is right. What they're "supposed to do". How very SJ of you to say.
    It's what they're supposed to do if they are trying to make money, which is sort of the idea of starting a business. Wink right back at you!


    untrue. exaggerated. hyperbolic blanket statement.
    True. Accurate. Inarguable, in fact. That's how market activity works. You acquire something you value more than the money or work or good you exchange for it. I shouldn't have to explain that to you. You tell me how that is untrue, and offer an alternative.


    No, actually it's a form of education used by ancient philosophers.
    I challenged your assertions, and you parroted the same thing back to me. Someone with a solid position would have responded with evidence, statistics, etc.


    Oh honey I've read books about Ron Paul, too.
    What does Ron Paul have to do with anything? Call me arrogant, but I am willing to bet that I am better-informed about the state of the global economy than you are. Your viewpoint on this topic seems misinformed. To be honest, it sounds like you read some Dickens and Upton Sinclair and then said, "That's it! All done! I know exactly what the world is like! Businessez r soe MEAN!!!123"


    Current conditions are approximately same, which is BAD. I never said the conditions of a first world factory worker in 19th/20th century was GOOD. That is part of my point.
    But the situations of the factory workers back then improved dramatically. Leaving the farms and hinterlands was a huge positive. That's why people kept doing it. If the average Malaysian is currently on the same track that the average American was 100 years ago, they would praise Allah for the blessings of good fortune rained upon themselves and their families.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  8. #68
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    It's disappointing that this thread has turned into a series of personal attacks when the subject could (and should) be debated in a constructive manner. Capitalism vs. Socialism is a very hot subject, but it really shouldn't be this personal.
    I agree with marmalade.sunrise about capitalism during the Industrial Revolution. The biggest problem with capitalism during this time period was that the few that did very well at the top of their business got all the publicity, which made ignorant, young people from farms and rural areas want to try and make their fortunes in big cities. There was also a lot of prejudice against foreigners and immigrants, so it was hard for people coming to the US to find better jobs than those in sweat shops. Same scenario for women and children. Once they got to the cities, everyone got slapped in the face by reality and couldn't get better jobs than the hard labor ones. They couldn't open their own stores or try their own businesses after a certain point because huge corporations made gigantic monopolies which made it nearly impossible for anyone with less than millions to make their fortunes. It was a sand pit that sucked people into poverty and wouldn't let them out. People lost their money and had to work at their crappy jobs, along with their wife and children, to make a living.
    If you read any novels of the time period, especially those with realism or naturalism, you'll really get the feeling for the hopelessness these people felt. You can also read books on the Triangle Building fire and other disasters that emphasized the problems in this time period.
    The reason capitalism in this form was so horrid was because it didn't allow many people to move up. Immigrants, women, and children especially were at a standstill, where all they could do was deal with the conditions they were given. They could make no demands, they could go nowhere else, and there was nothing for them to do but work their bodies to their bones and then die in poverty. Once the government started attacking monopolies and trusts, things got significantly better, but the government's involvement in business is slightly socialistic. Without that small bit of socialism, many people would still be unable to do better than what they were born with.
    "Yet, the right act
    Is less, far less, than the right-thinking mind.
    Seek refuge in thy soul; have there thy heaven!"

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheerful-pessimist View Post
    It's disappointing that this thread has turned into a series of personal attacks when the subject could (and should) be debated in a constructive manner. Capitalism vs. Socialism is a very hot subject, but it really shouldn't be this personal.
    I agree with marmalade.sunrise about capitalism during the Industrial Revolution. The biggest problem with capitalism during this time period was that the few that did very well at the top of their business got all the publicity, which made ignorant, young people from farms and rural areas want to try and make their fortunes in big cities. There was also a lot of prejudice against foreigners and immigrants, so it was hard for people coming to the US to find better jobs than those in sweat shops. Same scenario for women and children. Once they got to the cities, everyone got slapped in the face by reality and couldn't get better jobs than the hard labor ones. They couldn't open their own stores or try their own businesses after a certain point because huge corporations made gigantic monopolies which made it nearly impossible for anyone with less than millions to make their fortunes. It was a sand pit that sucked people into poverty and wouldn't let them out. People lost their money and had to work at their crappy jobs, along with their wife and children, to make a living.
    If you read any novels of the time period, especially those with realism or naturalism, you'll really get the feeling for the hopelessness these people felt. You can also read books on the Triangle Building fire and other disasters that emphasized the problems in this time period.
    The reason capitalism in this form was so horrid was because it didn't allow many people to move up. Immigrants, women, and children especially were at a standstill, where all they could do was deal with the conditions they were given. They could make no demands, they could go nowhere else, and there was nothing for them to do but work their bodies to their bones and then die in poverty. Once the government started attacking monopolies and trusts, things got significantly better, but the government's involvement in business is slightly socialistic. Without that small bit of socialism, many people would still be unable to do better than what they were born with.

    Every single thing here is untrue. Laughably so. Immigrants to major cities who got factory jobs saw their living standards rise DRAMATICALLY.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    These cultures were also brutal, poverty-stricken, and had no concept of individual rights. That is no culture worth living in.
    The Cherokee Nation might find your statement highly disagreeable.




    Disprove what I wrote.

    McDonald's Corp.:

    Market Cap = $64.39 billion

    Net sales/revenue (FY2008) = $23.52 billion

    Earnings Before Interest and Taxes (EBIT) = $6.57 billion

    Income tax = $1.84 billion

    Net Income Available to Common = $4.31 billion

    Number of employees worldwide = 400,000

    Amount of money donated through RMHC Scholarship Program for college students = $29 million


    Yeah, if McDonald's disappeared, nothing bad would happen. Do we have a jerking-off-motion smiley on this site anywhere?
    I can't disprove the actual business figures for McDonald's. However, these numbers alone do not prove anything about actual human experience, or negative vs. positive impact upon a nation.



    BTW, what exactly are "truly capitalist markets' and "market dictatorship?" Also, what kind of libertarian wants to "move toward small business?"
    Every "real republican" I know.

    One of the major points of libertarianism is that the market should decide whether companies succeed or not. You can't be biased toward one type or size. You can disagree with what some companies do (the Big 3 auto companies are mismanaged, tax-stealing disgraces, for instance), but libertarianism doesn't include a preference for some people over others.
    WRONG!!! Libertarianism doesn't include a <i> government regulated </i> preference for some people over others. This means that right-wing government would stop giving special benefits to big business.




    What does this even mean? I provided an example to illustrate my point that I don't get paid "enough," but it's completely and totally fair, given the work I do and the skill level it takes. Lots of people can do my crappy job, therefore it doesn't pay very well. That's totally fair.
    Lots of people in the world do harder work than you for less money and get treated like shit. That's not fair.




    It's what they're supposed to do if they are trying to make money, which is sort of the idea of starting a business. Wink right back at you!

    There's so much more to life than this.




    Call me arrogant,
    Ok, you're arrogant. But I think that's already plenty obvious.





    If the average Malaysian is currently on the same track that the average American was 100 years ago, they would praise Allah for the blessings of good fortune rained upon themselves and their families.
    Two disturbingly racist, classist comments in one thread. I'm out, dude.

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