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  1. #1
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    Default How do you feel about historical monuments?

    How do you feel about historical monuments?

    I started thinking about this today as I was watching a YouTube about massive concrete monuments erected during the cold war by nationalistic communist regimes, the snarky youtuber was looking at this huge 40 million project which is now derelict in Bulgaria, I've seen stuff like this on my travels and read about other stuff and been interested in a lot of things "left over" from earlier eras, forgotten or (like the Bulgarian example) in living memory.

    It got me wondering what peoples views are about such things, I know in the Bulgarian example that some fierce opposition exists to restoring that site because of enmity about the communist regime, while others want to restore it as its become very popular with tourists and online searches. It could certainly be a huge revenue stream for a not to wealthy country.

    On the other hand, I totally understand that they do not want the site to become some kind of perverse pilgrimage site for extremists of one variety or another. I know this is part of the reason that Germany has done work to erase reference to Hitler and the nazis from public buildings or sites. There's also the conflict about the Aushwitz (spelling) site, do you preserve it for posterity or let it sink into the ground (slow moving earth fasts are sucking the site into the ground, interestingly this links with a number of old testament and new testament myths about cursed sites).

    A lot of history is contested and horrific but at the same time I think its worth keeping it in mind, it happened, it could happen again. Anyway, what do you think?

    On a smaller scale the agitation about tearing down versus preserving statues is something like this, in my part of the world maybe the disputes about flags is something like it too. For my own part I dont worry much about these kind of symbolic struggles or culture wars these days, maybe when I was a teenager but that was dumb, symbolic stuff had little real bearing on "the thing itself", or so I've decided.

  2. #2
    Guardian of Ga'Hoole Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Historical monuments aren't important.

    What is important is manners and ways of comportment. Dost thou behave as a gentlemen, or dost thought act as uneducated swine? One must always surround oneself with an aura of decorum and dignity, and preserving the proper forms of conduct. Otherwise we would sink into mere barbarity like a band of uncouth Scotsmen.
    A path is made by walking on it.

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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julius_Van_Der_Beak View Post
    Historical monuments aren't important.

    What is important is manners and ways of comportment. Dost thou behave as a gentlemen, or dost thought act as uneducated swine? One must always surround oneself with an aura of decorum and dignity, and preserving the proper forms of conduct. Otherwise we would sink into mere barbarity like a band of uncouth Scotsman.
    Dude are you steampunk cosplaying?

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    Guardian of Ga'Hoole Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Dude are you steampunk cosplaying?
    I hadst seen the former Chief of State on TV saying about Russia, "So what, we have killers too!" and I was so distraught I lay prone upon my fainting couch for nigh a fortnight.

    The idea is to imitate prissy Victorian manners. I saw you mention how you weren't interested in debates about symbolic things, and I thought... what is more symbolic than monuments? Manners! And a lot of political discourse is actually about manners. This isn't always bad, because I think you should treat people well, but during the Trump administration, this resulted in people being apoplectic about the dumbest shit, like apparently not sugarcoating the fact that the CIA has done some cold-blooded shit. How is that a progressive position? Why am I supposed to care about him not showing proper deference to the FBI? They put MLK on a watchlist, not to mention the fact that it was James Comey's idiocy and incompetence that gave Trump the bump he needed to win. Comey deserved what he got.

    (I get in theory that it's bad that the President wants to shield himself from investigation by firing the director of the FBI, but .... we've already set a precedent for looking the other way with regards to the misdeeds of the executive branch. In addition, we apparently have the idea that a sitting President can't be indicted and that's not something Trump imposed on anyone but some dumb norm people in the Justice department/ FBI (can't remember which) insisted on adhering to. Evidently it's kinda the default position to hold the President as being above the law because preserving the integrity of the office is more important or some hogwash. I guess Watergate didn't actually mean that much. But that goes on to the broader pont my overly caffeinated self has been making about these being systemic failures and it was specious to pretend that the issue was just one bad guy getting in there. Things are falling apart because people insist on sticking to Si-type stuff that aren't even laws rather than trying to find novel solutions to meet the challenges of the current moment, and it doesn't seem to matter that this stuff has already been proven to not to work. )

    Anyway, I don't really care about historical monuments but people have a lot of dumb ideas about how moving some statue of Nathan Bedford Forest is destroying history just like the Nazis would have done (really, I saw a cousin of mine post a dumb meme about how removing statues and disrespecting flags is what the Nazis did.... I normally don't engage with that kind of thing but the lazy-ass use of a WWII reference just to make themselves seem more righteous set me off. She deleted the meme later.) Like, no, people probably shouldn't have honored Nathan Bedford Forrest and it's weird that you see moving this as some big crime and attack on white people or insult to your heritage or whatever. I guess I'd say that I find the degree to which people are triggered by these kinds of things very telling. On the flip side I would say that politicians like to push things like this because it's easy to do and make it look like you care. Easier to take down a statue of Columbus than take on the police unions. Symbolic gestures are popular not necessarily because they are the most effective way to accomplish change, but because they are easy for politicians to do.
    A path is made by walking on it.

    -Zhuangzi



  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    How do you feel about historical monuments?

    I started thinking about this today as I was watching a YouTube about massive concrete monuments erected during the cold war by nationalistic communist regimes, the snarky youtuber was looking at this huge 40 million project which is now derelict in Bulgaria, I've seen stuff like this on my travels and read about other stuff and been interested in a lot of things "left over" from earlier eras, forgotten or (like the Bulgarian example) in living memory.

    It got me wondering what peoples views are about such things, I know in the Bulgarian example that some fierce opposition exists to restoring that site because of enmity about the communist regime, while others want to restore it as its become very popular with tourists and online searches. It could certainly be a huge revenue stream for a not to wealthy country.

    On the other hand, I totally understand that they do not want the site to become some kind of perverse pilgrimage site for extremists of one variety or another. I know this is part of the reason that Germany has done work to erase reference to Hitler and the nazis from public buildings or sites. There's also the conflict about the Aushwitz (spelling) site, do you preserve it for posterity or let it sink into the ground (slow moving earth fasts are sucking the site into the ground, interestingly this links with a number of old testament and new testament myths about cursed sites).

    A lot of history is contested and horrific but at the same time I think its worth keeping it in mind, it happened, it could happen again. Anyway, what do you think?

    On a smaller scale the agitation about tearing down versus preserving statues is something like this, in my part of the world maybe the disputes about flags is something like it too. For my own part I dont worry much about these kind of symbolic struggles or culture wars these days, maybe when I was a teenager but that was dumb, symbolic stuff had little real bearing on "the thing itself", or so I've decided.
    They should repurpose them for recreational activities and exhibitions.

    https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/me...friendship.jpg

    http://monumentalism.net/wp-content/...t-Pantheon.jpg

  6. #6
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post


    A lot of history is contested and horrific but at the same time I think its worth keeping it in mind, it happened, it could happen again. Anyway, what do you think?
    This is the logic used to continue to spread the Lost Cause fallacy in the US south. Since 2000, 32 new Confederate monuments. This, of course, was never about preserving history. It's how Union states have Confederate monuments as well.

    'Changing history'? No – 32 Confederate monuments dedicated in past 17 years | American civil war | The Guardian

    There is no real issue with the monuments themselves. It's how and what people are taught about them. It should be vividly clear that propaganda has done an excellent job on the US, from The Lost Cause to the Cold War, Iraq, Trump.... people here are susceptible because revisionist history is encouraged and education is controlled by its fans.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.
    Likes The Cat, Koto liked this post

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    Queer Coded Cat The Cat's Avatar
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    Replace all monuments with trees.
    I am the Cat who walks by themself; and all places are alike to me...

    For the cat is cryptic,
    and close to strange things which men cannot see.
    They are the soul of antique Aegyptus,
    and bearer of tales from forgotten cities in Meroë and Ophir.
    They are the kin of the jungle’s lords,
    and heir to the secrets of hoary and sinister Africa.
    The Sphinx is their cousin, and they speak her language;
    but they are more ancient than the Sphinx,
    and remember that which she hath forgotten...

    Likes Koto liked this post

  8. #8
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    In this part of the world it is normal that with every new order come some new monuments.
    However for me there is a big difference between destroying the monument and just moving it to some museum. Where it belongs as a relic of the past.
    Likes ceecee liked this post

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceecee View Post
    This is the logic used to continue to spread the Lost Cause fallacy in the US south. Since 2000, 32 new Confederate monuments. This, of course, was never about preserving history. It's how Union states have Confederate monuments as well.

    'Changing history'? No – 32 Confederate monuments dedicated in past 17 years | American civil war | The Guardian

    There is no real issue with the monuments themselves. It's how and what people are taught about them. It should be vividly clear that propaganda has done an excellent job on the US, from The Lost Cause to the Cold War, Iraq, Trump.... people here are susceptible because revisionist history is encouraged and education is controlled by its fans.
    I was not specifically thinking about the confederate statues thing but its fair enough that it gets a mention.

    The lost cause idea sounds a bit like the doomed uprising idea that allowed the easter rising in the ROI to serve as a good foundation myth. That sure can happen and be a thing. There's a lot of similar stuff here and people are very, very sensitive about it, like to the point that moves to make strong expressions of monocultural celebrations are either suspect or, when they work, like say some ignorant tourist or immigrant stumbles upon or into the same celebrations they can become a victim of people who perceive a "shared" history as threatening, they're losing something in the process.

    History is bound up with identity for some people and its exclusive and exclusionary not inclusive, or at least neutral, I think of all history as relatively neutral or think it should be. I'm influenced by Frank Herbert's depiction of things like religion in serious historical time though, when you get the merger of oppositions, or perceived opposites, in things like the Zen Sunnis or Orange Catholics, perhaps, who knows, and I also question who benefits from keeping peoples or perspectives in conflict, contention, division etc. you know?

    It is a little different statues to buildings or settlements or massive monumental theatres like the Bulgarian example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cat View Post
    Replace all monuments with trees.
    Let all castles be caravans

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virtual ghost View Post
    In this part of the world it is normal that with every new order come some new monuments.
    However for me there is a big difference between destroying the monument and just moving it to some museum. Where it belongs as a relic of the past.
    I do think that too.

    I also think there's bound to be literal tons of abandoned buildings relating to the world war or cold war which could make amazing, simply amazing, tourism attractions. I mean presently people just see whatever some urban explorer has snapped or videoed on a mobile phone. I also know that this may be something that's just of interest to me as I like underground structures, man made caves or shelters, as much as I do actual speleology/caving.

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