Hand Gestures

[Hermit of the Forest]

Why? If it's not being used as such, the member will state it and it's no harm, no foul.

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Jesus fucking christ on a stick. Now I have to fluff up my questions?

You assumed that was a white power symbol, it was clearly stated in your question. Aside from being excessively rude, a question that seems to imply you may be the worst kind of person doesn’t leave everyone with a no harm, no foul sort of impression.

Even so, such questioning might be better handled in private, where you could get the answers you seek and the other party would not be singled out for suspicion by all.

 

[Lark]

"When did you stop beating your wife?" is a question, too.

Fluff is unnecessary, but neutrality and an open mind are always helpful. E.g.: "What is the meaning of your hand sign?"

Classic example of a loaded question. The one about wife beating.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

The social dynamic of this whole thing is rather unsettling to me. I understand both sides, but it's problematic when it becomes okay to publicly call out someone for publicly calling out someone, but in question format.

I know this is going to get moved to Off-Topic, and hopefully what I am saying is not taken as a rule violation, nor is it misconstrued as being hostile or provocative, because that is not my intent, but it seems rather imbalanced that members are told to take things to private feedback, but it is acceptable, supported, and even encouraged for moderators to publicly critique the behavior of the general public, oftentimes in piggyback form.

Honestly, I think maybe it's time to open up a public discussion thread. A lot of members have left recently because of feelings of imbalance or the silencing/punishing of certain members.

Please don't take what I've said the wrong way, but rather as a suggestion for improved communication and better relations between members and moderators. It could really improve morale and participation, too.

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Don't forget that these are stressful times for basically everyone. People aren't acting their best.

 

[Coriolis]

The social dynamic of this whole thing is rather unsettling to me. I understand both sides, but it's problematic when it becomes okay to publicly call out someone for publicly calling out someone, but in question format.

I know this is going to get moved to Off-Topic, and hopefully what I am saying is not taken as a rule violation, nor is it misconstrued as being hostile or provocative, because that is not my intent, but it seems rather imbalanced that members are told to take things to private feedback, but it is acceptable, supported, and even encouraged for moderators to publicly critique the behavior of the general public, oftentimes in piggyback form.

Honestly, I think maybe it's time to open up a public discussion thread. A lot of members have left recently because of feelings of imbalance or the silencing/punishing of certain members.

Please don't take what I've said the wrong way, but rather as a suggestion for improved communication and better relations between members and moderators. It could really improve morale and participation, too.

The rules require that questions or criticism of specific moderator actions be handled in private. Comments posted by moderators as members, with no official implications, can be discussed openly just like comments from members who are not mods. As you saw, both mods (in our capacity as members) and non-mod members commented on this situation. To avoid confusion, when I post publicly as a moderator I put my text in blue font. I am not sure if the other mods always do, but if that would help, I can certainly make the suggestion.

 

[Tilt]

I think for most people that hand gesture means "a-ok" or "OK". Google's native keyboard has an emoji depicting that hand gesture. I highly doubt Google would allow it for several years if it was primarily a white supremacist sign.

 

[red_evening_apple]

Is that the deliberate use of the white supremacist power symbol?

No, it just means "ok/I'm alright", as other members said before me, and in my country we often use it as a joke gesture when taking dumb pictures. I didn't even know it could have been mistaken for a white supremacist symbol (I'm not from the USA and I don't know in detail what's happening there), I wouldn't even have posted the picture if I knew it could cause misunderstandings and a long discussion over it
And anyways if you want to know, your question doesn't make much sense, if I were really "dog whistling" (which I don't even know what it means), did you really think I would answer that yes, I was actually doing the white supremacist symbol?

 

[Lark]

No, it just means "ok/I'm alright", as other members said before me, and in my country we often use it as a joke gesture when taking dumb pictures. I didn't even know it could have been mistaken for a white supremacist symbol (I'm not from the USA and I don't know in detail what's happening there), I wouldn't even have posted the picture if I knew it could cause misunderstandings and a long discussion over it
And anyways if you want to know, your question doesn't make much sense, if I were really "dog whistling" (which I don't even know what it means), did you really think I would answer that yes, I was actually doing the white supremacist symbol?

Its been adopted as a supremacist signal, kind of like a gang sign, though, so if you wherent aware of that before now then you are now and can decide whether you want to run the risk of being associated with that sort of messaging or not.

Its not just whether or not people may be offended by it either, that's almost besides the point for most people online these days, but it WILL attract the people who have adopted it as a pseudo-covert gang sign and they WILL take an interest in you, your call whether you're down with that or not, I guess. I dont think its a safe decision to make but it is your decision to make at the end of the day.

 

[Lark]

The social dynamic of this whole thing is rather unsettling to me. I understand both sides, but it's problematic when it becomes okay to publicly call out someone for publicly calling out someone, but in question format.

I know this is going to get moved to Off-Topic, and hopefully what I am saying is not taken as a rule violation, nor is it misconstrued as being hostile or provocative, because that is not my intent, but it seems rather imbalanced that members are told to take things to private feedback, but it is acceptable, supported, and even encouraged for moderators to publicly critique the behavior of the general public, oftentimes in piggyback form.

Honestly, I think maybe it's time to open up a public discussion thread. A lot of members have left recently because of feelings of imbalance or the silencing/punishing of certain members.

Please don't take what I've said the wrong way, but rather as a suggestion for improved communication and better relations between members and moderators. It could really improve morale and participation, too.

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Don't forget that these are stressful times for basically everyone. People aren't acting their best.

Who left? What imbalance?

I must have missed all this to be honest.

 

[Schrödinger's Name]

Its been adopted as a supremacist signal, kind of like a gang sign, though, so if you wherent aware of that before now then you are now and can decide whether you want to run the risk of being associated with that sort of messaging or not.

Its not just whether or not people may be offended by it either, that's almost besides the point for most people online these days, but it WILL attract the people who have adopted it as a pseudo-covert gang sign and they WILL take an interest in you, your call whether you're down with that or not, I guess. I dont think its a safe decision to make but it is your decision to make at the end of the day.

So, when any random conservative/hate group decides to use a certain innocent symbol, everyone has to stop using it? We just 'donate' a peaceful symbol to people who spew hate?

If homophobes decide today that the rainbow flag is now a symbol for homosexual genocide (or whatever) I'll continue to use it anyway. It's not their sign and it never will be. Same for the 'ok' hand gesture. Hate groups can back off and should be punished for being a hate group in the first place.

But anyway, this is going off topic. Maybe I should post a picture of myself to make up for it (but I probably won't).

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

No, it just means "ok/I'm alright", as other members said before me, and in my country we often use it as a joke gesture when taking dumb pictures. I didn't even know it could have been mistaken for a white supremacist symbol (I'm not from the USA and I don't know in detail what's happening there), I wouldn't even have posted the picture if I knew it could cause misunderstandings and a long discussion over it
And anyways if you want to know, your question doesn't make much sense, if I were really "dog whistling" (which I don't even know what it means), did you really think I would answer that yes, I was actually doing the white supremacist symbol?

I sensed an innocent A-okay kinda thing in your pic. It's unfortunate that this has been such a big mess here. I realize a lot of people in this thread said they had no idea about the hand symbol, but during the George Floyd Protests, that symbol was all over the news media with people wondering if various politicians were using it to express white supremacy. I'm surprised so few from the U.S. on these forums had any awareness of that because it was a big deal for a while online. White supremicists are often very aggressive and might actually respond with pride about their beliefs in any context. The U.S. has a lot of deep dysfunction and fear, especially now during the time of violence, calling out years of racial oppression, social dysfunction and attempting to dismantle the police.

I can understand how the gesture could be done innocently, especially by someone from outside the U.S., and I can also see how someone living in the U.S. could feel concerned. These symbols and attitudes are in the forefront of many communities. I have family in rural communities who were afraid because the white supremicists were threatening to attack the houses of anyone expressing any support of George Floyd or any anti-racist sentiments. They protest proudly with signs and public photos. White supremicists have extreme arrogance as part of their culture and beliefs, so they are not ashamed of their hatred, but quite open about it.

I didn't think that's what you were doing, maybe because you have a sweet face, but I will express empathy for both sides of the misunderstanding because of how prevalently known that symbol is - at least in rural portions of the U.S. It's just an unfortunate misunderstanding between two nice people.

Edit: I think if a person has felt directly threatened by white supremacists - like they are a potential target, then they are more aware when they encounter these symbols and tend to remember them. Maybe that's it?

 

[Lark]

So, when any random conservative/hate group decides to use a certain innocent symbol, everyone has to stop using it? We just 'donate' a peaceful symbol to people who spew hate?

If homophobes decide today that the rainbow flag is now a symbol for homosexual genocide (or whatever) I'll continue to use it anyway. It's not their sign and it never will be. Same for the 'ok' hand gesture. Hate groups can back off and should be punished for being a hate group in the first place.

But anyway, this is going off topic. Maybe I should post a picture of myself to make up for it (but I probably won't).

You're free to choose as I said.

There's consequences that go along with your choice, as always, being identified with fascists or supremacists is one of those consequences, at the moment at least, by them or by others.

 

[Mind Maverick]

Is that the deliberate use of the white supremacist power symbol?

I await a confirmation or negating of such, from the member. Dog whistling is all the rage.

Then they should be aware of dog whistles.

Or maybe, people need to read my post to understand that it was a question, rather than a conclusion.

Why? If it's not being used as such, the member will state it and it's no harm, no foul.

I mean, yes, it was technically just asking a question, but at the same time, it was obvious that there was an implication / it was bordering on accusation rather than neutral inquiry as well, which is even more easily seen when the posts are pieced together.

Evidently, playing the innocent "it was just a question" card when you know there was more to it than that is all the rage as well.

 

[Tilt]

I sensed an innocent A-okay kinda thing in your pic. It's unfortunate that this has been such a big mess here. I realize a lot of people in this thread said they had no idea about the hand symbol, but during the George Floyd Protests, that symbol was all over the news media with people wondering if various politicians were using it to express white supremacy. I'm surprised so few from the U.S. on these forums had any awareness of that because it was a big deal for a while online. White supremicists are often very aggressive and might actually respond with pride about their beliefs in any context. The U.S. has a lot of deep dysfunction and fear, especially now during the time of violence, calling out years of racial oppression, social dysfunction and attempting to dismantle the police.

I can understand how the gesture could be done innocently, especially by someone from outside the U.S., and I can also see how someone living in the U.S. could feel concerned. These symbols and attitudes are in the forefront of many communities. I have family in rural communities who were afraid because the white supremicists were threatening to attack the houses of anyone expressing any support of George Floyd or any anti-racist sentiments. They protest proudly with signs and public photos. White supremicists have extreme arrogance as part of their culture and beliefs, so they are not ashamed of their hatred, but quite open about it.

I didn't think that's what you were doing, maybe because you have a sweet face, but I will express empathy for both sides of the misunderstanding because of how prevalently known that symbol is - at least in rural portions of the U.S. It's just an unfortunate misunderstanding between two nice people.

Edit: I think if a person has felt directly threatened by white supremacists - like they are a potential target, then they are more aware when they encounter these symbols and tend to remember them. Maybe that's it?

That's all good and well, but Red said the picture was a silly picture from March... before the George Floyd protests. So the association seems out of left field.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

That's all good and well, but Red said the picture was a silly picture from March... before the George Floyd protests. So the association seems out of left field.

I'm not sure the sense of timing you express here. The symbol has been white supremicist for much longer and the protests is when social awareness was increased and that's all. I realized this pic was not white supremicist, but because it was posted after the symbol became known in the U.S. I am merely stately a reason for empathy why someone would wonder.

Article posted September 26 2019
The 'OK' Hand Gesture Is Now Listed As A Symbol Of Hate : NPR

"The hand sign that was flashed on camera is one that has had a benign meaning for generations: It is commonly used to signal “OK”, or all is well. But in recent years, it has also been appropriated for other purposes, most notably as a way to signify “white power”. It has become an extremist meme, according to the Anti-Defamation League."
December 17 2019
How did the OK sign become a symbol of white supremacy? | The Independent

 

[Tilt]

I'm not sure the sense of timing you express here. The symbol has been white supremicist for much longer and the protests is when social awareness was increased and that's all. I realized this pic was not white supremicist, but because it was posted after the symbol became known in the U.S. I am merely stately a reason for empathy why someone would wonder.

Article posted September 26 2019
The 'OK' Hand Gesture Is Now Listed As A Symbol Of Hate : NPR

"The hand sign that was flashed on camera is one that has had a benign meaning for generations: It is commonly used to signal “OK”, or all is well. But in recent years, it has also been appropriated for other purposes, most notably as a way to signify “white power”. It has become an extremist meme, according to the Anti-Defamation League."
December 17 2019
How did the OK sign become a symbol of white supremacy? | The Independent

Ahhh interesting. That makes sense. On another note, my mom said that that hand gesture meant "asshole" when she was stationed in Korea.

 

[red_evening_apple]

Its been adopted as a supremacist signal, kind of like a gang sign, though, so if you wherent aware of that before now then you are now and can decide whether you want to run the risk of being associated with that sort of messaging or not.

Its not just whether or not people may be offended by it either, that's almost besides the point for most people online these days, but it WILL attract the people who have adopted it as a pseudo-covert gang sign and they WILL take an interest in you, your call whether you're down with that or not, I guess. I dont think its a safe decision to make but it is your decision to make at the end of the day.

It's a risk I run only when I'm dealing with Americans apparently, since in my country it's just a normal symbol, and up to now I've always associated with people from my own country or at most the rest of Europe or Asia and Africa both in real life and online. Maybe I should keep it that way, I don't know all things about American culture, just as I am sure you people from the US don't know everything about other countries and what's happening there, and if I'll risk doing something wrong every time I click the "sumbit" button and have to worry over it for days, I'd rather keep to my small bubble. I know this may sound like overreacting to it and it probably is, but I'm really sorry for how things went, I don't even want American white supremacists to ever have an interest in me just because I used what in my country is just a funny, happy sign, that and the fact that I already have several things that are difficult to deal with in my life and I don't want to receive other kinds of worry in my free time; I've already received much stress from this misunderstanding alone, and while for a neurotypical or emotionally stable person it might seem like a stupid point of view, for a person that's already battling with other stressful and energy-draining problems it's not. I'll just keep posting my dumb pictures where people won't misinterpret is as something else, just as I've always done up to now. I'm sorry that a light-hearted and positive thread turned into such a mess because of me, I wish I'd never posted my picture here

I sensed an innocent A-okay kinda thing in your pic. It's unfortunate that this has been such a big mess here. I realize a lot of people in this thread said they had no idea about the hand symbol, but during the George Floyd Protests, that symbol was all over the news media with people wondering if various politicians were using it to express white supremacy. I'm surprised so few from the U.S. on these forums had any awareness of that because it was a big deal for a while online. White supremicists are often very aggressive and might actually respond with pride about their beliefs in any context. The U.S. has a lot of deep dysfunction and fear, especially now during the time of violence, calling out years of racial oppression, social dysfunction and attempting to dismantle the police.

I can understand how the gesture could be done innocently, especially by someone from outside the U.S., and I can also see how someone living in the U.S. could feel concerned. These symbols and attitudes are in the forefront of many communities. I have family in rural communities who were afraid because the white supremicists were threatening to attack the houses of anyone expressing any support of George Floyd or any anti-racist sentiments. They protest proudly with signs and public photos. White supremicists have extreme arrogance as part of their culture and beliefs, so they are not ashamed of their hatred, but quite open about it.

I didn't think that's what you were doing, maybe because you have a sweet face, but I will express empathy for both sides of the misunderstanding because of how prevalently known that symbol is - at least in rural portions of the U.S. It's just an unfortunate misunderstanding between two nice people.

Edit: I think if a person has felt directly threatened by white supremacists - like they are a potential target, then they are more aware when they encounter these symbols and tend to remember them. Maybe that's it?

I see. I didn't know in America racists were open about being racist and even proud of it. In my country we do have a racism problem as well, but it's kinda seen as a shameful thing by a lot of people and usually racists try to stay "in the closet" about it or try to deny the fact they're racist not to be criticized by people. The few people who are openly and proudly racist in my country are seen as deranged and to be avoided, so it was automatic for me to assume that no one in their sane mind would deliberately post a picture of themselves using a racist symbol or admit it proudly when they're asked about it. I see that in the end it was just a cultural problem, as a person coming from outside the US I can't know everything about it, just like Americans can't know everything about other countries, not to mention that the media here have hardly talked about the protests and the bits of information you can gain online from here are not very specific

 

[Red Herring]

It's a risk I run only when I'm dealing with Americans apparently, since in my country it's just a normal symbol, and up to now I've always associated with people from my own country or at most the rest of Europe or Asia and Africa both in real life and online. Maybe I should keep it that way, I don't know all things about American culture, just as I am sure you people from the US don't know everything about other countries and what's happening there, and if I'll risk doing something wrong every time I click the "sumbit" button and have to worry over it for days, I'd rather keep to my small bubble. I know this may sound like overreacting to it and it probably is, but I'm really sorry for how things went, I don't even want American white supremacists to ever have an interest in me just because I used what in my country is just a funny, happy sign, that and the fact that I already have several things that are difficult to deal with in my life and I don't want to receive other kinds of worry in my free time; I've already received much stress from this misunderstanding alone, and while for a neurotypical or emotionally stable person it might seem like a stupid point of view, for a person that's already battling with other stressful and energy-draining problems it's not. I'll just keep posting my dumb pictures where people won't misinterpret is as something else, just as I've always done up to now. I'm sorry that a light-hearted and positive thread turned into such a mess because of me, I wish I'd never posted my picture here



I see. I didn't know in America racists were open about being racist and even proud of it. In my country we do have a racism problem as well, but it's kinda seen as a shameful thing by a lot of people and usually racists try to stay "in the closet" about it or try to deny the fact they're racist not to be criticized by people. The few people who are openly and proudly racist in my country are seen as deranged and to be avoided, so it was automatic for me to assume that no one in their sane mind would deliberately post a picture of themselves using a racist symbol or admit it proudly when they're asked about it. I see that in the end it was just a cultural problem, as a person coming from outside the US I can't know everything about it, just like Americans can't know everything about other countries, not to mention that the media here have hardly talked about the protests and the bits of information you can gain online from here are not very specific

I'm sorry your first few weeks here were already stressful. It's a tense time for many people, especially for Americans and most people here are Americans.

As a fellow European, even one with great interest in American politics, I agree that this is all a bit weird and awkward. Don't let it taint your enjoyment of the forum though if you find it otherwise worthwhile.

 

[Mind Maverick]

I'm American also and had 0 clue ithe symbol could mean anything else. It's always been "OK," hell, even in emojis like Discord, etc. it's "OK."

 

[geedoenfj]

Oh God

I plead the moderators to move these posts to off topic posts..

And to whoever throw accusations or “questions” around..

It’s not okay to take someone by a suspicion
It’s not okay to put them in defense
It’s not okay to be self righteous in the name of anything
If you assume someone is a racist, then your behavior is no different than this “racist”..
And no, no one is supposed to carry a manual instructions on what every hand sign means, but you -a non racist- ought to interpret actions to its least harmful meanings... period

 

[Tilt]

I'm American also and had 0 clue ithe symbol could mean anything else. It's always been "OK," hell, even in emojis like Discord, etc. it's "OK."

Apparently, it only started 3 YEARS AGO because a bunch of fucking trolls on 4Chan wanted to see if they could convince people that it was a secret white power sign and the white power movement decided to adopt it.

[MENTION=40844]red_evening_apple[/MENTION]: you didn't do anything wrong. I think it's even obscure to most Americans. Heck, even an American non-profit, the Unicode Consortium, approved the emoji for use on our smartphones....and it's still on there. So it just became a recent thing within the last 3 years.