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Censorship...

ceecee

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Actually, my refusal to join your collectivist ranks is your problem. None of my agendas require group effort against people's wills. So good luck with all of those.

I was referring to *we* as our nation of people as a whole but of course you have no interest in being part of that either. That's why conservative American is said in that order.

Other than total pieces of garbage like Gavin McGinnis or Alex Jones, I don't support censorship. I know no one on the left that does. But I have realized the right needs a boogieman. If it's not the transgender toilet monster or Antifa, it's some subversive plot to snuff out conservative thought and your laughable efforts to frame liberalism as a religion. Liberalism and liberal democracy provided every right you have in this country. It's also why you are badly outnumbered and no one takes you seriously.
 

Lark

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I want tangible, concrete evidence for America's present greatness. WWII was a long time ago, and individualism and freedom are abstractions. It's looking suspiciously like you have a religious belief in the greatness of America, but I'm sure I'm mistaken and you can point to all kinds of tangible and concrete evidence for greatness. I'm sure a rational intellectual person like yourself wouldn't just believe in the greatness of America without proof.



You can share your hymns here. I'm sure the mods will be happy to split this thread off if need be; they have done so in the past.

I dont believe individualism or freedom are abstractions, I just dont believe they are that evident anywhere right now. Not least the US. At least if they do exist they are the preserve of the few and not the many, which as I understand it was not the aim of America's founding as an independent state. It would perhaps be justifiable as the preserve of the few if it produced examples of exceptional individuals but I am not sure that it is doing that any longer. Or if it was utilitarian for it to be the preserve of a few or secured the legacies of the past for future generations better than any alternative. I do not think this is evidently the case either.

I do think that really good questions should be asked right now, searching ones, about why if everything that is said for or about capitalism and free markets is indeed true why could it not cope with the pandemic? Talking about greatness is incredibly vague, does it mean military might? What does military might count for if you can not manage basic logistics or your economy is threatened with collapse or people experience poverty, hardship, disease and death if they go a single month or two without a pay check?

Those are all great questions. I think they deserved to be asked before now when things like dishonesty in the city and subprime mortgage bubbles threatened crisis and collapse. Although the pandemic has put it in sharper focus. Or should have.

The whole thing has been like some kind of incredible lesson for the slow learners that they are approaching childhoods end or the time in the sand box is almost up. That said there are A LOT of forces that are militating against getting to grips with this reality. Forget the press. Forget political or civil leadership. Even the "alternatives" (left or right) are ready to rehearse the battles of yester year all over again and again.
 

Lark

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I was referring to *we* as our nation of people as a whole but of course you have no interest in being part of that either. That's why conservative American is said in that order.

Other than total pieces of garbage like Gavin McGinnis or Alex Jones, I don't support censorship. I know no one on the left that does. But I have realized the right needs a boogieman. If it's not the transgender toilet monster or Antifa, it's some subversive plot to snuff out conservative thought and your laughable efforts to frame liberalism as a religion. Liberalism and liberal democracy provided every right you have in this country. It's also why you are badly outnumbered and no one takes you seriously.

I do think that bogey man thing is real.

I saw a rioter in the UK who was fighting with police blame the disorder on "antifa" on the BBC yesterday, this was some aging skinhead in London, I just watched it and thought it was absolutely ridiculous.
 
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“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”

“And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed—if all records told the same tale—then the lie passed into history and became truth. ‘Who controls the past’ ran the Party slogan, ‘controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.'”

Orwell said it far better than I ever could. Anyone who hasn’t read 1984 should. Brave New World and Fahrenheit 451 as well. I have read all three several times and continue to every few years.

Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be said. Just because you don’t agree with someone doesn’t mean they should be silenced. We’re already on the slippery slope. We’re already sliding towards a vast abyss of ignorance. Every time you silence someone or something you dislike you’re descending further into the void. A place where intellectual atrophy is the only destination.

The last thing any of us should want is a Ministry of Truth.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I dont believe individualism or freedom are abstractions, I just dont believe they are that evident anywhere right now. Not least the US. At least if they do exist they are the preserve of the few and not the many, which as I understand it was not the aim of America's founding as an independent state. It would perhaps be justifiable as the preserve of the few if it produced examples of exceptional individuals but I am not sure that it is doing that any longer. Or if it was utilitarian for it to be the preserve of a few or secured the legacies of the past for future generations better than any alternative. I do not think this is evidently the case either.

They are abstractions, but this does not necessarily mean they don't matter. However, I wish to move away from discussing them because I believe in this case, they are more the cornerstones of a personal faith rather than anything actually observable in reality. "This country is great with freedom because you can get a permit and if the government decides to give it to you you can march down the street. " OK... that's true in lots of places, not just the U.S. We hear over and over (and we have all heard this since a very young age) that we are the greatest country on Earth, but in the present moment, what is the actual basis for that?

Give me PROOF of greatness and awesomeness that isn't just intangible cornerstones of a personal faith. The only concrete evidence of the intangible cornerstones are things that apply to lots of other countries, dystopian post-colonial social democracies included. Or crap like "we're free because it's illegal to not prostrate yourself before the flag in France" despite the fact that the same people get triggered whenever they see that happening here. Given the way people act about that shit, it might as well be illegal.



I do think that really good questions should be asked right now, searching ones, about why if everything that is said for or about capitalism and free markets is indeed true why could it not cope with the pandemic?
Those .

Good point. If the free market is so awesome at coping with all ills, why was it strained by the pandemic? (I suppose some people account for this by blaming it by "Democrat" leadership in the areas that are most affected, but even if that absurd proposition made any sense [given that the "Democrat" areas are in fact the centers of capitalism; Wall Street isn't in fucking Wyoming], why did the disease cause the economy to come to a halt? Why couldn't such an awesome system handle the crisis on its own without government intervention?
 

ceecee

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Why couldn't such an awesome system handle the crisis on its own without government intervention?

Why does it need to be bailed out every decade or so? It's obvious that the current system is derelict, it's not helping the country at all and a more and more overreaching Federal Reserve is artificially inflating the markets. That's not a functioning economic system for anyone other than a small handful of people. That entire fantasy about joining those ranks from the bottom are exactly that - a fantasy. Most countries use a mixed economic system. There is a reason for that and you'd think it would be clear to everyone why this is but...nope.

I have to admit it's kind of wild to watch people defend a failing system to the death. That's how you know it's failing - it can't work on it's own without massive propping up at the expense of working people.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Why does it need to be bailed out every decade or so? It's obvious that the current system is derelict, it's not helping the country at all and a more and more overreaching Federal Reserve is artificially inflating the markets. That's not a functioning economic system for anyone other than a small handful of people. That entire fantasy about joining those ranks from the bottom are exactly that - a fantasy. Most countries use a mixed economic system. There is a reason for that and you'd think it would be clear to everyone why this is but...nope.

I have to admit it's kind of wild to watch people defend a failing system to the death. That's how you know it's failing - it can't work on it's own without massive propping up at the expense of working people.

I think you and I just lack the intellectual clarity to see beyond our religious beliefs.
 

Virtual ghost

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No, this is a dying empire. Perhaps [MENTION=4347]Virtual ghost[/MENTION] can tell me why I'm wrong.

We're not great. What is the evidence for us being great? What are we great at?



Since you are calling my name ....



America actually used to be a great country, saying that there was never greatness in US in the terms of global history is factually wrong. However in this hysteria about greatness the country became too arrogant and self-absorbed. What made it start taking wrong turns with firm belief that it doesn't have anything to fundamentally learn or upgrade and that it can't do wrong (or even take damage). While everything else is basically just reality of bad turns and decisions catching up with people. Especially since others didn't stop developing in the meantime. What creates active counter-force that is speeding up the decline because better solutions/principles were found for a number of problems/issues.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Since you are calling my name ....



America actually used to be a great country, saying that there was never greatness in US in the terms of global history is factually wrong. However in this hysteria about greatness the country became too arrogant and self-absorbed. What made it start taking wrong turns with firm belief that it doesn't have anything to fundamentally learn or upgrade and that it can't do wrong (or even take damage). While everything else is basically just reality of bad turns and decisions catching up with people. Especially since others didn't stop developing in the meantime. What creates active counter-force that is speeding up the decline because better solutions/principles were found for a number of problems/issues.

Sounds like Democrat propaganda, lol.
 

Lark

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They are abstractions, but this does not necessarily mean they don't matter. However, I wish to move away from discussing them because I believe in this case, they are more the cornerstones of a personal faith rather than anything actually observable in reality. "This country is great with freedom because you can get a permit and if the government decides to give it to you you can march down the street. " OK... that's true in lots of places, not just the U.S. We hear over and over (and we have all heard this since a very young age) that we are the greatest country on Earth, but in the present moment, what is the actual basis for that?

Give me PROOF of greatness and awesomeness that isn't just intangible cornerstones of a personal faith. The only concrete evidence of the intangible cornerstones are things that apply to lots of other countries, dystopian post-colonial social democracies included. Or crap like "we're free because it's illegal to not prostrate yourself before the flag in France" despite the fact that the same people get triggered whenever they see that happening here. Given the way people act about that shit, it might as well be illegal.





Good point. If the free market is so awesome at coping with all ills, why was it strained by the pandemic? (I suppose some people account for this by blaming it by "Democrat" leadership in the areas that are most affected, but even if that absurd proposition made any sense [given that the "Democrat" areas are in fact the centers of capitalism; Wall Street isn't in fucking Wyoming], why did the disease cause the economy to come to a halt? Why couldn't such an awesome system handle the crisis on its own without government intervention?

I do think freedom and individualism are tangible and not abstractions, I think that freedom is a drive within individuals and the more it is denied or qualified the less likely it is that any society will prosper or manage crisis, the more popular that denying freedom or dismissing its importance is the more likely that some kind of authoritarianism, absolutism or totalitarianism will step into the breech.

Its tangible in a practical sense in that the US does not practice ownership of people, indentured labour, debt bondage, plantation life, all the things the confederacy held dear and their later day supporters want to see make a come back.

Not everyone has the material means to freedom and individual sovereignty, that is qualified, and a lot of coercive control has been privatized rather than abolished. So freedom really is the preserve of the few or fewer. Although, even so, it still exists. It should exist more widely than it does. Even if people consider fostering servility in others not to be a problem for them personally its only a matter of time.

So far as the economy goes, its been tested and found wanting, the resilience of society, state, leadership and economy have all been tested by the pandemic and found wanting.

The problems of the future are increasingly going to be catastrophic weather and catastrophic epidemics, pandemics, disease, its stupid to think the priorities, investment and policies of the past are the way to go in dealing with those things. Although that isnt even opinion anymore. The Jury isnt out on it. The facts and evidence is in.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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You and Ceecee are religious?! :O :shock::huh:

I was being sarcastic because a poster keeps calling secular leftism a religion. I don't think anyone can reasonably say that it's any more of a religion or cult than secular rightism.
 

Virtual ghost

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Sounds like Democrat propaganda, lol.


Not really. I think Hillary said that America never stopped being great and so that "the entire slogan" is nonsense. However most of the world doesn't separate Americans that much by party side. Do Americans generally separate other nations by local partisan politics ? Not really.



However this just came in, very nice example of the national arrogance already mentioned. You can do this from time to time for "greater good" or whatever. However after repeating this kind of stuff over and over through the decades you start to rub people in a wrong way ... and then you start to lose power and genuine influence that keeps you at the top.



Will the EU stand up for the ICC?


Plus here is one more on this, Borrell is our top diplomat.

Borrell has ‘serious concern’ over US sanctions against International Criminal Court



But if you like I can give you Obama era stuff that are on this level. Like secretly taping phones of key European politicians or questionable military moves that current administration want's to preserve from further investigation mentioned in the links. Therefore this is much wider issue than just local partisan politics. However for all nations it is usually hard to see themselves from third person perspective. Especially since distance makes it easier to see the big/full picture.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Not really. I think Hillary said that America never stopped being great and so that "the entire slogan" is nonsense. However most of the world doesn't separate Americans that much by party side. Do Americans generally separate other nations by local partisan politics ? Not really.



However this just came in, very nice example of the national arrogance already mentioned. You can do this from time to time for "greater good" or whatever. However after repeating this kind of stuff over and over through the decades you start to rub people in a wrong way ... and then you start to lose power and genuine influence that keeps you at the top.



Will the EU stand up for the ICC?


Plus here is one more on this, Borrell is our top diplomat.

Borrell has ‘serious concern’ over US sanctions against International Criminal Court



But if you like I can give you Obama era stuff that are on this level. Like secretly taping phones of key European politicians or questionable military moves that current administration want's to preserve from further investigation mentioned in the links. Therefore this is much wider issue than just local partisan politics. However for all nations it is usually hard to see themselves from third person perspective. Especially since distance makes it easier to see the big/full picture.

Sure, it's fine with me if you are bipartisan. It's allowed by my faith, lol.

I wrote a post sharing an article the disaster of the Libyan intervention a few weeks ago. Given that it was something I remember Hillary pushing a lot and "BENGHAZI", I expected at the very least for the Republicans to share some interest here, but it was crickets all around. I suppose it was the fact that BENGHAZI was about Americans dying, and that article was about Libyans dying. I had one non-American (probably you) respond to that, I think. I'd just seen part of an article in a magazine with somebody talking about how, even after Iraq, they still believe America's military is a force for good. I looked at who it actually was, and it was Madeline Albright. So it's obvious to me that the continued belief in the greatness of American empire is in fact a bipartisan problem.

My support for Sanders had less to do with the "free stuff" (although I do think we need many of those things) I hear libertarian types go on about, and more to do with the fact that his track record on things like authoritarian domestic surveillance or imperial adventures is better than most other Democratic politicians from that era. In my view, he did the right thing in spite of it being unpopular which makes him more qualified for the office than someone with "foreign policy experience" who has nevertheless supported disastrous policies.

So, this is why I think that If Biden gets elected, we'll have a slowed decline, but it will still be a decline. The people he appoints to foreign policy positions will be people in the Madeline Albright mold; "realists" who still believe all the myths about American exceptionalism and America being the greatest country on Earth. They'll be more competent at managing a rotten, broken system, but it will still be a rotten, broken system that they won't change.
 

Lark

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I was being sarcastic because a poster keeps calling secular leftism a religion. I don't think anyone can reasonably say that it's any more of a religion or cult than secular rightism.

Its pretty meaningless to describe it as anything other than it is, whoever describes it as a religion is either commending or condemning it depending on their estimation of what religion is.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Its pretty meaningless to describe it as anything other than it is, whoever describes it as a religion is either commending or condemning it depending on their estimation of what religion is.

It's meant to be negative due to NTP faux-edginess.
 

Tellenbach

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There's a documentary about censorship and the cancel culture called "No Safe Spaces" that I highly recommend. Conservative speakers at college campuses are routinely "disinvited" because leftists threaten violence and university administrators say they can't afford the security. Look up Ben Shapiro, Dennis Prager, and Ann Coulter's blogs/podcasts and read their thoughts on the matter.

Facebook, Google (youtube), and Twitter also use different standards in censoring political speech; I'm actually fine with this since these are private corporations, but I would like them to at least admit that they engage in political censorship/advocacy.
 

Virtual ghost

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So, this is why I think that If Biden gets elected, we'll have a slowed decline, but it will still be a decline. The people he appoints to foreign policy positions will be people in the Madeline Albright mold; "realists" who still believe all the myths about American exceptionalism and America being the greatest country on Earth. They'll be more competent at managing a rotten, broken system, but it will still be a rotten, broken system that they won't change.




True, you are likely to get some kind of decline none the less which party is in the office. What has something to do with exact people placed in big chairs, while at the other side of the coin is something about what Americans basically never talk about. Which is advances and progress of others around the globe. Since the debate is mostly sealed with America is on the top and this can't be different. While many other nations surpassed US in various social solutions/results. Many even joined forces with nearby countries so that they would be more competitive and important globally. With globalization the world became very dynamic place where monolithic thinking of US doesn't really pass that well. Since rules, alliances, influences, threats and technologies change all the time. What also means that having your own country as a single team also helps since even without that there are currently just too many variables in the mix. Therefore countries profoundly change themselves in order to float in this while US even if is big and it can take a lot has pretty low regenerative options and in the end it will have some kind of a problem with fatigue.



Therefore to return to the topic: this is the issue which should be much less censored in US. What is ASEAN ? How many countries there are in EU ? Who has or exports most ore in the world ? How many democracies are active multiparty democracies? How others manged to get "free" college working for decades ..... the list of potential topics is almost endless. Until you dive into this as a nation the decline is pretty much certain since sometimes you have to change core principles to make it work.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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True, you are likely to get some kind of decline none the less which party is in the office. What has something to do with exact people placed in big chairs, while at the other side of the coin is something about what Americans basically never talk about. Which is advances and progress of others around the globe. Since the debate is mostly sealed with America is on the top and this can't be different. While many other nations surpassed US in various social solutions/results. Many even joined forces with nearby countries so that they would be more competitive and important globally. With globalization the world became very dynamic place where monolithic thinking of US doesn't really pass that well. Since rules, alliances, influences, threats and technologies change all the time. What also means that having your own country as a single team also helps since even without that there are currently just too many variables in the mix. Therefore countries profoundly change themselves in order to float in this while US even if is big and it can take a lot has pretty low regenerative options and in the end it will have some kind of a problem with fatigue.



Therefore to return to the topic: this is the issue which should be much less censored in US. What is ASEAN ? How many countries there are in EU ? Who has or exports most ore in the world ? How many democracies are active multiparty democracies? How others manged to get "free" college working for decades ..... the list of potential topics is almost endless. Until you dive into this as a nation the decline is pretty much certain since sometimes you have to change core principles to make it work.

Rebuttal: blah blah freedom individualism bald eagles flags.
 

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Julius_Van_Der_Beak said:
Give me PROOF of greatness and awesomeness that isn't just intangible cornerstones of a personal faith.

Look at the list of the top 200 films on IMDB or the most popular films and tv series. The vast majority are American made.

Who made the smartphone? Look at how smartphones have shaped and changed the world.
Who made the mass market personal computer? Who built the internet?

I don't know how far back you want to go with this but here's a list of some notable Americans:

Nicola Tesla, Albert Einstein, Henry Ford, Thomas Edison, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Jeff Bezos, Michael Jordan, Elvis, Michael Jackson, Steven Spielberg, Christopher Nolan, Bruce Lee, The Wright Brothers, Muhammad Ali, Walt Disney, Stan Lee, and Jonas Salk (polio vaccine).

Basically, the USA has contributed more to world culture and the improvement of humanity than the rest of the world combined.
 
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