The Murder of George Floyd & Subsequent Protests/Riots

[Coriolis]

African Americans cited for resisting arrest at high rate in S.F.

This is San Francisco, so I'm sure the police have received a ton of racial sensitivity training.





The math sucks in this article, but the point is still very clear. Either black suspects are resisting arrest at a much higher rate compared to asians and whites or the cops in San Francisco are lying. Which is it? Since many ISTJs are cops, I tend to trust they're telling the truth.

Did you consider that blacks might resist arrest because they are less confident that they will be fairly treated in a police encounter? "Resisting arrest" is also a convenient excuse to apply after the fact, when police actions are questioned as excessive. Sort of like the POW camp's "shot while trying to escape".

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Did you consider that blacks might resist arrest because they are less confident that they will be fairly treated in a police encounter? "Resisting arrest" is also a convenient excuse to apply after the fact, when police actions are questioned as excessive. Sort of like the POW camp's "shot while trying to escape".

You're talking to a self-proclaimed libertarian who probably doesn't believe in the Bill of Rights.

 

[Tellenbach]

Did you consider that blacks might resist arrest because they are less confident that they will be fairly treated in a police encounter?

Of course. I'm not making a judgement. I'm trying to understand why black people are more likely to be injured compared to other demographics while in police custody. This propensity to resist arrest, relative to everyone else, would explain that statistic, no? If a suspect resists arrest, they're more likely to get hurt in the process. That's not the fault of the police or an indication of racism.

You're talking to a self-proclaimed libertarian who probably doesn't believe in the Bill of Rights.

Leftists don't believe in the Bill of Rights, right? You guys don't care about religious liberty (baking cakes for gay weddings), freedom of speech (cancel culture), the 2nd Amendment (let's ban guns), and the 10th Amendment (state's rights).

I definitely do believe in the Bill of Rights, but I think many people struggle between doing the right thing and being pragmatic. I would love for the National Guard to enter gang-controlled territories in Chicago and other Democrat strong-holds and take the guns away from gang members. That would be my pragmatic side, but I also think government officials should follow the letter of the law as closely as possible. I would also love for criminals on death row to fry quickly, but there's a long process for that as well.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I would love for the National Guard to enter gang-controlled territories in Chicago and other Democrat strong-holds and take the guns away from gang members.

See? This is why I say that the right is just driven by fear. It always comes back to some other group that's not them that they're afraid of when you dig deep enough. Things like "balanced budgets" and "limited government" are just smokescreens, which explains why they abandon those so often in favor of things that have a "higher priority" (which always turns out to be some group they're afraid of!). Right wing politics is incomprehensible when judged according to the stated ideology of "balanced budgets" and "smokescreens." The fear-based model has much greater explanatory power.

For all their bullshit machismo posturing, conservatives are a panicky lot.

Also the full text ff the 10th amendment says "or to the people". It's not just about states rights (which Trump doesn't mind fighting with Illinois about when it comes to things like sanctuary cities).

 

[Red Herring]

I would like to add that the police in other developed countries use far less deadly force and tend be instructed ans trained to deescalate. And before you tell me "well, they have a different democraphic" (dog whistle for fewer black people) - the same people tend to paint Europe as overrun my nonwhite migrants. So which one is it?

Seriously though, from where I am standig the problem starts with viewing your own citizens as a potential threat rather than people you get paid to serve and protect.

I'm not saying there is no institutional racism here, but it is perfectly possible to have a society based on mutual trust and cooperation.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Seriously though, from where I am standig the problem starts with viewing your own citizens as a potential threat rather than people you get paid to serve and protect.

Viewing your own citizens as a potential threat is a key tenant of libertarianism, tho. You're not one of those nuts who thinks "excessive force" is somehow in conflict with "limited government" are you?

 

[Virtual ghost]

Viewing your own citizens as a potential threat is a key tenant of totalitarianism.

Fixed.
I actually think that US at this point actually doesn't have too many genuine libertarians (what people say about their "ideology" is almost irrelevant).

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Fixed.
I actually think that US at this point actually doesn't have too many genuine libertarians (what people say about their "ideology" is almost irrelevant).

I was being sarcastic, haha. Most libertarians are really just garden-variety conservatives trying to seem more hip or something.

 

[ceecee]

St. Louis couple who pointed guns at protesters have a history of suing neighbors | TheHill

If anyone deserves to be a victim of cancel culture, it's these pieces of shit.

Incidentally, no protesters were ever on their property. So what are they so afraid of?

 

[ceecee]

I would like to add that the police in other developed countries use far less deadly force and tend be instructed ans trained to deescalate. And before you tell me "well, they have a different democraphic" (dog whistle for fewer black people) - the same people tend to paint Europe as overrun my nonwhite migrants. So which one is it?

Seriously though, from where I am standig the problem starts with viewing your own citizens as a potential threat rather than people you get paid to serve and protect.

I'm not saying there is no institutional racism here, but it is perfectly possible to have a society based on mutual trust and cooperation.

Would you trust the US government? Would you trust a cop or a lawyer or anyone in a position of power in the US? I don't.

 

[Jaguar]

Would you trust the US government?

As a whole? No.

 

[Coriolis]

As a whole? No.

I trust them more than I trust big corporations.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Would you trust the US government? Would you trust a cop or a lawyer or anyone in a position of power in the US? I don't.

I already explained to the forum why I don't really see this institution as a government.
However it is hard to judge without concrete experience, but I would probably still trust it to some degree. Since I really don't think that all apples are rotten at this point. Even if the media/individuals that advocate small government are trying to make it look like that. To me this war on government in every form never really made sense, especially since without it there is no constitution.

I trust them more than I trust big corporations.

This, although at this point is seems unclear where one starts and the other begins.

 

[Red Herring]

Would you trust the US government? Would you trust a cop or a lawyer or anyone in a position of power in the US? I don't.

No, I probably wouldn't (even though I'm a white middle class female with most cards stacked in my favor).

My point was that things don't have to be like this. Watching the dumpsterfire (Trump, corona, police violence and racial conflict) from a slighly safer distance I can't help but think that Americans are getting killed by their own values, their own fellow citizens and their own government. Mostly by their own values.

 

[anticlimatic]

I trust them more than I trust big corporations.

Even though they're the biggest corporation of the lot that earns its money through extortion and doesn't even need to be effective to continue existing?

Police Wrestle With Surge in Crime in U.S. Cities Amid Defunding Efforts - WSJ

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Even though they're the biggest corporation of the lot that earns its money through extortion and doesn't even need to be effective to continue existing?

Police Wrestle With Surge in Crime in U.S. Cities Amid Defunding Efforts - WSJ

That's why we need anarcho-communism, j/k. Seriously, though, the police are part of the state, ya dingus. I'd like to smoke whatever drugs you're using that reveals how the police have nothing to do with the government, so I can convert to fascist-libertarianism. That's my major gap to accepting the police as my personal lord and saviour; they're so tied up with the state and capital! Worse yet, unlike the President, in a lot of places you can't even vote for them. They're unelected, so you can't kick them out if they do a bad job.

 

[ceecee]

No, I probably wouldn't (even though I'm a white middle class female with most cards stacked in my favor).

My point was that things don't have to be like this. Watching the dumpsterfire (Trump, corona, police violence and racial conflict) from a slighly safer distance I can't help but think that Americans are getting killed by their own values, their own fellow citizens and their own government. Mostly by their own values.

Same here. They don't have to be like this at all you can see the people on this forum as a small sample of why Americans are getting killed by their own values. They don't care much about themselves, let alone other Americans.

 

[anticlimatic]

That's why we need anarcho-communism, j/k. Seriously, though, the police are part of the state, ya dingus. I'd like to smoke whatever drugs you're using that reveals how the police have nothing to do with the government, so I can convert to fascist-libertarianism. That's my major gap to accepting the police as my personal lord and saviour; they're so tied up with the state and capital! Worse yet, unlike the President, in a lot of places you can't even vote for them. They're unelected, so you can't kick them out if they do a bad job.

Are you having fun beating up yet another one of your straw men?

 

[Jaguar]

I trust them more than I trust big corporations.

Wait until a dirty cop comes to your home and falsifies a police report. Then we'll see how generous you are with your trust and idealism.

 

[Coriolis]

Wait until a dirty cop comes to your home and falsifies a police report. Then we'll see how generous you are with your trust and idealism.

While I am waiting, I will have corporations betray my trust and intrude in my life in many other ways, and I will have much less recourse than I have with the bad cop. "Market forces" are supposed to keep companies on the straight and narrow. We have all seen how well that works.