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The Murder of George Floyd & Subsequent Protests/Riots

Coriolis

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I wanted to publicly state I really appreciated this reading. Thank you.
And I appreciate your expressing your own views so openly, and being receptive to discussion.
 

anticlimatic

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It is an inherent property of intelligence that it can jump out of the task which it is performing, and survey what it has done; it is always looking for, and often finding, patterns. Now, I said that an intelligence can jump out of its task, but that does not mean that it always will. Of course, there are cases where only a rare individule will have the vision to percieve a system which governs many peoples’ lives, a system which had never before even been recognized as a system; then such people often devote their lives to convincing other people that the system really is there, and that it ought to be exited from.

Douglas Hofstadter
 

Red Memories

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I am wondering what you guys think of something I saw this morning...I guess some of the protestors want the National Anthem changed... Do you think it needs changed? Do you have any ideas what a new one would be?
 

ceecee

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I am wondering what you guys think of something I saw this morning...I guess some of the protestors want the National Anthem changed... Do you think it needs changed? Do you have any ideas what a new one would be?

Do you have any source for this because I couldn't find one. I also think it's likely bullshit.

One thing I would like to see is the pledge of allegiance changed back to either the original or the pre-1950's wording but that has nothing to do with the protests and everything to do with returning the country to it's secular promise of the 1st Amendment.
 

Red Memories

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Do you have any source for this because I couldn't find one. I also think it's likely bullshit.

One thing I would like to see is the pledge of allegiance changed back to either the original or the pre-1950's wording but that has nothing to do with the protests and everything to do with returning the country to it's secular promise of the 1st Amendment.

I originally saw the idea here:
Why it might be time to retire ‘The Star-Spangled Banner’

I never really knew there was a racist line in the star spangled banner? You can call bullshit on it if it is so. Sometimes I just see something on the front page when I open my browser that I'm like wait what this is kinda...interesting.
 

Red Memories

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Another note, I am not sure about the whole Bubba Wallace conspiracy here. There's a bunch of people claiming he lied but I don't think he did. It seemed like innocent fear during this whole turmoil, since he had spoken out about appreciating Nascar banning the confederate flags (they attempted to do so in the past too). I guess my actual question, to people, they were saying this noose had been in garage 4 since 2019...

why do nascar people have nooses in the car garage? is there a use? am I missing something? What the actual hell is the noose for? XD

I find it appalling people keep comparing it to the Jussie Smollet thing. Yes, Jussie obviously blatantly made some shit up probably more as a B rated actor hoping to get more of a base and notoriety but instead it blew up in his face. Some people lie, that is a fact. I absolutely hate it when one liar is used to discredit innocent claims like this. And with the current climate if I was Bubba I think I'd have been scared too. Especially with a sport like nascar, which has been loved by redneckers for years.
 

ceecee

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I originally saw the idea here:
Why it might be time to retire ‘The Star-Spangled Banner’

I never really knew there was a racist line in the star spangled banner? You can call bullshit on it if it is so. Sometimes I just see something on the front page when I open my browser that I'm like wait what this is kinda...interesting.

The protesters only calling for the anthem to be changed is all I called bullshit on. This appears to be a much bigger conversation and that's fine, let's have that conversation.
 

Red Memories

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The protesters only calling for the anthem to be changed is all I called bullshit on. This appears to be a much bigger conversation and that's fine, let's have that conversation.

Oh that I know. I was just curious if you knew if this line was actually true? because that's...a pretty awful line...
 

ceecee

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Oh that I know. I was just curious if you knew if this line was actually true? because that's...a pretty awful line...

Yes I knew. Until this country deals with the past and lives up to all the claims they make (freedom, liberty, happiness for all) and scold other countries for not being, it needs to shut the fuck up. So if we need to have that reckoning right now, let's have it.
 

Coriolis

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I am wondering what you guys think of something I saw this morning...I guess some of the protestors want the National Anthem changed... Do you think it needs changed? Do you have any ideas what a new one would be?
There has been a movement in favor of changing our national anthem for years, completely independent of any protests. I actually agree with it for two reasons. First, our anthem is notoriously difficult to sing. Second, it focuses on a very isolated historical event, rather than something fundamental about our nation or what it stands for. While "Oh say does that star-spangled banner yet wave o'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?" can certainly be viewed in a more generalized sense, and one might argue is a question appropriate to our present times, national anthems are usually a bit more general in sentiment. "America the Beautiful" has been suggested as an alternative. Musically it is much more singer-friendly, and (without going back to check all the verses), it seems to do a better job of encapsulating what is best about our nation, or at least our ideals.
 

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If I am not mistaken the British anthem had a part - which is now removed - which said 'crush the rebellious Scotts.'

Hilarious 😂
 

Coriolis

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If I am not mistaken the British anthem had a part - which is now removed - which said 'crush the rebellious Scotts.'

Hilarious 😂
Germany still uses the Deutschlandlied, but have abandoned the verse beginning "Deutschland, Deutschland über alles" which became associated with the Nazi regime. I'm glad, because the music is a venerable old tune by Franz Josef Haydn that is well worth keeping in popular use.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Another note, I am not sure about the whole Bubba Wallace conspiracy here. There's a bunch of people claiming he lied but I don't think he did. It seemed like innocent fear during this whole turmoil, since he had spoken out about appreciating Nascar banning the confederate flags (they attempted to do so in the past too). I guess my actual question, to people, they were saying this noose had been in garage 4 since 2019...

why do nascar people have nooses in the car garage? is there a use? am I missing something? What the actual hell is the noose for? XD

I find it appalling people keep comparing it to the Jussie Smollet thing. Yes, Jussie obviously blatantly made some shit up probably more as a B rated actor hoping to get more of a base and notoriety but instead it blew up in his face. Some people lie, that is a fact. I absolutely hate it when one liar is used to discredit innocent claims like this. And with the current climate if I was Bubba I think I'd have been scared too. Especially with a sport like nascar, which has been loved by redneckers for years.

There are three other verses no one ever sings, just like Twinkle Twinkle Little Star.
 

Riva

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Make that your national anthem USA. It's so beautiful and the message is meaningful. Might satisfy the Bible belters too since it has a Christian connotation to it. And since it doesn't directly refer any religion/religious figure can't say the song is religious is nature thereby keeping in line with the secular values.

 

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Germany still uses the Deutschlandlied, but have abandoned the verse beginning "Deutschland, Deutschland über alles" which became associated with the Nazi regime. I'm glad, because the music is a venerable old tune by Franz Josef Haydn that is well worth keeping in popular use.

Well, The Song of the Germans, although written in 1841 before there really was such a thing as a German nation state has only been the national anthem since 1922. So it has much less of a tradition than some other anthems.

We only sing the third verse because the first has been historically tainted and sounds terrible out of the context in which it was written (the French claiming the Rhineland and Germany not yet being united as one country) and the second verse is about wine, women and song (not really dignified enough for an anthem).

The third verse however, the only one used these days, is quite a good choice, I think:

Unity and justice and freedom
For the German fatherland!
Towards these let us all strive
Brotherly with heart and hand!
Unity and justice and freedom
Are the safeguards of fortune;
|: Flourish in the radiance of this fortune,
Flourish, German fatherland! :|
 

Red Memories

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So...

Why Black Lives Matter?

I don't mean the hashtag. BLM is more than just a little movement but is an organization. There are many other organizations related to assisting people of color, blacks especially, in their plight.

So why should I respect BLM more than these other movements?

When I look at BLM's code, it seems fine, but starts divulging into some things that...I am not sure what that has ANYTHING to do with supporting reforms in society to protect the average black person. It becomes like a millennial stereotype of a code of conduct...and technically the discussion of a global family is VERY COMMUNIST. I have no problem with their suggestions of for example, creating work places where the single mothers can have an eaiser time for their children. Or supporting the LGBT+ blacks, especially black trans women who are disproportionately killed within the community. The sort of family thing where everyone becomes the family is actually how many of these nations brainwashed the children into following all the doctrine even heavier than the parents who originally began things. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with assisting the plight of blacks.

We embody and practice justice, liberation, and peace in our engagements with one another. - People involved in the organization, not all the issues were in fact them, but there's no denying some of the people involved with this movement in its existence have destroyed property. That is not at all peaceful.

We foster a queer‐affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking, or rather, the belief that all in the world are heterosexual (unless s/he or they disclose otherwise). - That is all well and good but what does this exactly have to do with blacks in general? There are organizations just for assisting LGBT people of color.

We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable. - Thing I spoke of above.

We are self-reflexive and do the work required to dismantle cisgender privilege and uplift Black trans folk, especially Black trans women who continue to be disproportionately impacted by trans-antagonistic violence. - We have cisprivilege to dismantle now too??? Of course their lives also matter but this movement is about black people and "white privilege" which is spoken of, not exactly every privilege on earth being dismantled. Pretty hard to do that.

We are unapologetically Black in our positioning. In affirming that Black Lives Matter, we need not qualify our position. To love and desire freedom and justice for ourselves is a prerequisite for wanting the same for others. - But they've had white people on their knees having to apologize.

We acknowledge, respect, and celebrate differences and commonalities.

We work vigorously for freedom and justice for Black people and, by extension, all people. - please see above again. Many of these supporters just yell at you rather than trying, as [MENTION=4050]ceecee[/MENTION] and [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] have kindly done, to educate people and help them notice things. Many people just don't understand a little hashtag and being screamed at to believe in something without any data, knowledge, or education...

So SAY that I dislike this organization, but that in fact does not make me racist. It makes me desire a better organization that is stronger against extremist and is truly focused on the matters at hand and is more centralized to specific parts rather than something trying to encompass it all and in turn not being able to unite everything. In this ideal can I support other organizations and say "Black lives matter" without following an organization I feel isn't very strong?

http://www.blacknews.com/directory/black_african_american_organizations.shtml for anyone possibly interested, these are some other organizations that also fight for causes within BLM. The NAACP is one of the oldest. There's many selective also for LBGT+, and ones helping blacks enter into certain professions or even political areas. I absolutely encourage everyone to support blacks however possible to help them out of poverty and gaining equal rights as well.
 

Coriolis

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OK - this one I will address in more detail.
Why Black Lives Matter?

I don't mean the hashtag. BLM is more than just a little movement but is an organization. There are many other organizations related to assisting people of color, blacks especially, in their plight.

So why should I respect BLM more than these other movements?
There is a difference between a principle, a movement, and an organization. One might say equal rights for women is a principle, feminism is a movement, and NOW is an organization. It is possible to support one of these without supporting all. Same with BLM. Several organizations support BLM as a movement, and an end of racial discrimination as a principle. As we move from principle to organization, we move from goal to implementation, and many people who agree on the first will disagree on the second - on how to achieve a commonly shared goal.

You mentioned (not quoted here) some organizations that you think are working effectively for an end to racial discrimination. Which ones do you think go too far, or go about it the wrong way? This is a bit tricky with BLM, since it is supported by many locally organized decentralized groups, each of which may operate in a very different way.

When I look at BLM's code, it seems fine, but starts divulging into some things that...I am not sure what that has ANYTHING to do with supporting reforms in society to protect the average black person. It becomes like a millennial stereotype of a code of conduct...and technically the discussion of a global family is VERY COMMUNIST. I have no problem with their suggestions of for example, creating work places where the single mothers can have an eaiser time for their children. Or supporting the LGBT+ blacks, especially black trans women who are disproportionately killed within the community. The sort of family thing where everyone becomes the family is actually how many of these nations brainwashed the children into following all the doctrine even heavier than the parents who originally began things. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with assisting the plight of blacks.
Where did you find this? I found something different, though with similar principles when I looked. In any case:

We embody and practice justice, liberation, and peace in our engagements with one another. - People involved in the organization, not all the issues were in fact them, but there's no denying some of the people involved with this movement in its existence have destroyed property. That is not at all peaceful.
Individual members of Christian groups have destroyed property. Shall we disavow those groups? Even Jesus destroyed the booths of the moneylenders in the temple. Should he have called the local authorities instead? I think part of his point was that the local authorities were part of the problem. Not saying violence is the way here, but that organizations are assemblies of people and people are flawed. If you support only perfect organizations where no one steps out of line and acts against the charter or mission, you won't ever support anything.

We foster a queer‐affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking, or rather, the belief that all in the world are heterosexual (unless s/he or they disclose otherwise). - That is all well and good but what does this exactly have to do with blacks in general? There are organizations just for assisting LGBT people of color.
This part of the code actually speaks to the notion that all lives matter. No one is just black. Some are also female, or disabled, or gay, or Muslim, etc. Failure to understand and address racial discrimination in the broader context of real lives can alienate both supporters and beneficiaries, and result in solutions that help only part of the target group.

We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable. - Thing I spoke of above.
This is what we had just a couple generations ago. Most people lived their lives close to where they were born, surrounded by extended family, and neighbors who recognized all the neighborhood kids and would rein them in or at least talk to their parents if they were in trouble. This isn't Communist, it is traditional in many societies. Now, many kids have no one but their parents. They are invisible in their communities. No one knows them; no one will reach out. "Disrupting that structure" admits families with one parent, same-sex parents, adoptive parents, grandparents or aunts/uncles raising children, etc. without judgment.

We are self-reflexive and do the work required to dismantle cisgender privilege and uplift Black trans folk, especially Black trans women who continue to be disproportionately impacted by trans-antagonistic violence. - We have cisprivilege to dismantle now too??? Of course their lives also matter but this movement is about black people and "white privilege" which is spoken of, not exactly every privilege on earth being dismantled. Pretty hard to do that.
Privilege is rooted in assumptions, often based on appearance. It is always worthwhile to question those assumptions, so they no longer hold people back. See above about what is typically called intersectionality.

We are unapologetically Black in our positioning. In affirming that Black Lives Matter, we need not qualify our position. To love and desire freedom and justice for ourselves is a prerequisite for wanting the same for others. - But they've had white people on their knees having to apologize.
Really? Who are "they"? Which white people? This is a rather sweeping generalization.

We acknowledge, respect, and celebrate differences and commonalities.

We work vigorously for freedom and justice for Black people and, by extension, all people. - please see above again. Many of these supporters just yell at you rather than trying, as [MENTION=4050]ceecee[/MENTION] and [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] have kindly done, to educate people and help them notice things. Many people just don't understand a little hashtag and being screamed at to believe in something without any data, knowledge, or education...
This is part of the human condition, unfortunately. You will find people like this in almost any group. Better to find some other criteria to use when deciding if a movement or principle merits support.

So SAY that I dislike this organization, but that in fact does not make me racist. It makes me desire a better organization that is stronger against extremist and is truly focused on the matters at hand and is more centralized to specific parts rather than something trying to encompass it all and in turn not being able to unite everything. In this ideal can I support other organizations and say "Black lives matter" without following an organization I feel isn't very strong?
This is reasonable, as it is based, if I understand you correctly, in the organization's effectiveness in achieving the stated goal without causing more problems than they solve.
 

Red Memories

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for anyone wondering, I am speaking of this bit of clip that went viral here.

https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1267983074173779968

Not every protest is doing this obviously. There are other ones where say the whites washed the feet of the blacks but that is rooted in some Christian theology so that seems rational. Just seems kind of extreme from either point of view. That they wanted them to do it - and that they actually did it. Can't decide if it is legitimate or a group of idiots who wanted their woke points and to cause chaos.
[MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] I think it can be hard because...I agree yes 2 generations ago we were much more neighborly and aware of the people around us. Now we kind of live by the philosophy that what makes a good neighbor is having a good fence. (Robert Frost note... XD) but I have also been taught how Communism warped this sort of thing into basically allowing the states to take the children into their care more and brainwashing them. With how things are today with some things I'm not really sure how to know exactly which they mean, especially since these crazies are out destroying statues and anything they find to be historically racist in any slight way. It is not really a movement at this rate, it is organized chaos and borderlining domestic terrorism. There's many organizations that are a bit more structured not causing actual violence. I don't think Martin Luther King Jr. would've wanted this either.

what is weird to me is how many of the people in general doing this are white. I can't decide if this is what white people think blacks need, if this movement was really started by a majority of blacks or if it was started by some white people who think this makes them edgy. I think I'd feel more comfortable supporting causes that have been rooted in with the blacks longer than this has, because I'm not even sure that white people didn't hijack this movement for their own shit.

But that's my troubling issue here.

I did want to respond to this though.

Originally Posted by Jazzy Orchid View Post
We embody and practice justice, liberation, and peace in our engagements with one another. - People involved in the organization, not all the issues were in fact them, but there's no denying some of the people involved with this movement in its existence have destroyed property. That is not at all peaceful.
- Coriolis:
Individual members of Christian groups have destroyed property. Shall we disavow those groups? Even Jesus destroyed the booths of the moneylenders in the temple. Should he have called the local authorities instead? I think part of his point was that the local authorities were part of the problem. Not saying violence is the way here, but that organizations are assemblies of people and people are flawed. If you support only perfect organizations where no one steps out of line and acts against the charter or mission, you won't ever support anything.

- This is a fair assumption. Jesus did go through tearing things up because of the corruption. There are certain Christian groups that might deserve it...can we blot out the westboro baptist church please... But a little breakage makes a point. This destruction is continuing, and being promoted. I have been just as angry to see Christians using christianity to make points of bigotry and hatred because that is NOT what Jesus ever wanted. I do agree though, humans are flawed. But I also feel like BLM has kind of lost control of the whole. They asked for the violence and such to stop and really..no one listened. It could also just be pint up anger from everyone.

thanks again all for being open to the discussion.
 

ceecee

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for anyone wondering, I am speaking of this bit of clip that went viral here.

https://twitter.com/DailyCaller/status/1267983074173779968

Not every protest is doing this obviously. There are other ones where say the whites washed the feet of the blacks but that is rooted in some Christian theology so that seems rational. Just seems kind of extreme from either point of view. That they wanted them to do it - and that they actually did it. Can't decide if it is legitimate or a group of idiots who wanted their woke points and to cause chaos.

[MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] I think it can be hard because...I agree yes 2 generations ago we were much more neighborly and aware of the people around us. Now we kind of live by the philosophy that what makes a good neighbor is having a good fence. (Robert Frost note... XD) but I have also been taught how Communism warped this sort of thing into basically allowing the states to take the children into their care more and brainwashing them. With how things are today with some things I'm not really sure how to know exactly which they mean, especially since these crazies are out destroying statues and anything they find to be historically racist in any slight way. It is not really a movement at this rate, it is organized chaos and borderlining domestic terrorism. There's many organizations that are a bit more structured not causing actual violence. I don't think Martin Luther King Jr. would've wanted this either.

what is weird to me is how many of the people in general doing this are white. I can't decide if this is what white people think blacks need, if this movement was really started by a majority of blacks or if it was started by some white people who think this makes them edgy. I think I'd feel more comfortable supporting causes that have been rooted in with the blacks longer than this has, because I'm not even sure that white people didn't hijack this movement for their own shit.

But that's my troubling issue here.

I did want to respond to this though.

Originally Posted by Jazzy Orchid View Post
We embody and practice justice, liberation, and peace in our engagements with one another. - People involved in the organization, not all the issues were in fact them, but there's no denying some of the people involved with this movement in its existence have destroyed property. That is not at all peaceful.
- Coriolis:
Individual members of Christian groups have destroyed property. Shall we disavow those groups? Even Jesus destroyed the booths of the moneylenders in the temple. Should he have called the local authorities instead? I think part of his point was that the local authorities were part of the problem. Not saying violence is the way here, but that organizations are assemblies of people and people are flawed. If you support only perfect organizations where no one steps out of line and acts against the charter or mission, you won't ever support anything.

- This is a fair assumption. Jesus did go through tearing things up because of the corruption. There are certain Christian groups that might deserve it...can we blot out the westboro baptist church please... But a little breakage makes a point. This destruction is continuing, and being promoted. I have been just as angry to see Christians using christianity to make points of bigotry and hatred because that is NOT what Jesus ever wanted. I do agree though, humans are flawed. But I also feel like BLM has kind of lost control of the whole. They asked for the violence and such to stop and really..no one listened. It could also just be pint up anger from everyone.

thanks again all for being open to the discussion.

I saw that clip, I think it's ridiculous. So does every black person I know that has seen this clip. I'm not apologizing for being white, why would I? This is not something that happens on the left. That something that happens to misguided, misinformed liberals. I get what they're dong and it's not malicious. It's just dumb and helps no one.

But I'm not going to entertain The Daily Caller as a legitimate anything because they're not. I'm not doing the both sides thing - it's a fallacy and a huge reason no one can have a conversation about anything plus it's lazy as fuck.
 

Red Memories

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I saw that clip, I think it's ridiculous. So does every black person I know that has seen this clip. I'm not apologizing for being white, why would I? This is not something that happens on the left. That something that happens to misguided, misinformed liberals. I get what they're dong and it's not malicious. It's just dumb and helps no one.

But I'm not going to entertain The Daily Caller as a legitimate anything because they're not. I'm not doing the both sides thing - it's a fallacy and a huge reason no one can have a conversation about anything plus it's lazy as fuck.

Oh I only grabbed it there because I wanted to get the actual clip. I wouldn't go to this source on the daily. Also appreciate your PM explaining some things too.

As said, wondering if this is some who hijacked it to get some "woke" points or otherwise they think this is what they want and it is in fact very misguided.
 
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