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Random political thought thread.

Kephalos

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The United States should really look into reining in its client states in the Middle East:

“So I would use the leverage,” said Sanders. “$3.8 billion is a lot of money. We cannot give it carte blanche to the Israeli government … We have the right to demand respect for human rights and democracy”—though the candidate did not go into specifics.

Everything you need to know about human rights in Israel and Occupied Palestinian Territories | Amnesty International | Amnesty International

https://theintercept.com/2021/02/26...ease-of-report-on-killing-of-jamal-khashoggi/
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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For a very long time, the approach to the Israeli government was unquestioned and unchallenged in the US. That's changing, fortunately. Fuck yes Bernie.
 

The Cat

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as an lgbtqtia person who served in the military before 2011; these military ads feel like a sadistic trap -_-
 

Lark

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In studying comparitive religion, I learned that Bible reading was much more emphasized by Protestant denominations. This is why the sermon was a much more important component of Sunday worship, vs. the music and ritual of Catholics. Believers were expected and enjoined to read the Bible, and ministers used often lengthy and detailed sermons to tell them how to interpret it and what it meant for their lives. This is not unrelated to translation of the Bible into the vernacular, and development of the printing press, enabling everyone to own a copy. The Catholic tradition preserved worship in Latin until well into the last century, a tradition I personally find beautiful and meaningful, but which doesn't help believers engage with Biblical texts directly. Stories instead were presented in artwork (stained glass, statuary), and Biblical knowledge was long the realm of clergy.

I know much of this has changed in the modern age, now that people are literate, Bibles are readily available, and Catholics and Protestants live side by side. I grew up Catholic, and we did learn about the Bible in Sunday School - the atrocious CCD classes American kids were sent to. We were never given Bibles, like our protestant friends and schoolmates, though, it wasn't a priority. My church - a large one in an active archdiocese - never held a Bible study for adults. Christian education focused on being faithful to God and being a good person - valuable lessons illustrated as often using popular culture as Bible stories. Sermons were rudimentary, perfunctory, even, except for when a seminary professor visited to say Mass. The only topic emphasized less than the Bible was church history. I learned that in (secular) college. As a longtime church musician, I have seen much different treatment of the Bible in the many protestant churches where I have played. Even the smallest will emphasize Bible study for all ages, often giving Bibles to young people at Confirmation. My own knowledge of the Bible comes largely from taking some of these classes. I do not even count myself a Christian any longer, but I am happy to be familiar with a book that has had such a significant influence on humanity.


As related in the Bible, I find Jesus' meaning to be quite plain. It is also not an easy message to live up to. No surprise people prefer to obfuscate it or twist it into something unintended.

Its not simply a modern day thing that the role of the bible or vernacular scriptures has changed in the RCC, although I've met a lot of protestants who are honestly of the opinion that the reformation is still in its early days somehow and nothing has changed in the RCC itself or among its congregations. That is disappointing to me because theologically the Vatican even issued consensus papers as long ago at the 1990s or just slightly later which the Lutherans accepted on the validity of key points of Luther's doctrines. I know at the time and since I've found that difficult to accept but anyway.

In my home my parents but especially my dad are religious and my dad encouraged me when I was interested in buying a bible to do so, they've gifted me copies since, the ones I own have commentary in the form of footnotes from RCC theologians and I appreciate that. Although I do agree with you that a lot of the time religious education in schools or at masses (there is no sunday school here for RCC) was a form of moral education and most of the time references pop-culture, ie MLK, Ghandi, that type of thing.

I'd often wondered why the RCC does not seek to capitalize on its history, at its best (or even at its worst by way of a learning exercise), and its saints and its own traditions. Anyway, in terms of reading the bible, there was a counter-reformation, also a counter-enlightenment, most of those developments were about integrating what it was possible to and making definitive breaks with what they could not. I think that's fair enough. Its the classic "reflective conservative" model of rationalizing "tradition as memory" which is the only version of conservatism/traditionalism I think is legitimate.

Although, that said, if you ever read the "discourse on free will" between Luther and Erasmus, the reforming tendencies were already there. Luther behaved like the worst sort of "troll" or "rebel", rejected all the reforming forces as inadequate but as soon as he secured his independent status and leadership to himself he turned on his supporters and allied with the barons, against the church but also the peasants because of the peasant war in Germany.

I would be unsure if I could call myself a Christian, although its for very different reasons, probably, largely because in the Kirkegaard sense its hard to do so and properly honour what's mean (or at least I understand by that term).

The old and the new testaments are consistent one with the other, I think, I'm not sure if it is an "easy message to live up to" but I have some pretty radical understandings of that message, for instance, I consider the liberation theology to be valid, also to be moderate in contrast to my own understandings of what I think Jesus' teaching was. If I'm altogether honest in who I think has been able to practice, partially, what I think Jesus wanted, I'd have to say some zen buddhists maybe have been close, as I think it is important how you act, your mode of existence (being, not having, not doing) rather than you thinking or allegiance to creedos/testamonials.

I also think that the whole history of religion has been repeated by the irreligious on the macroscale and by pretty much any movement you care to mention on the microscale too, first as tragedy, second as farce, and probably will do, forever and ever, amen. :shock::shock::shock:
 

Lark

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For a very long time, the approach to the Israeli government was unquestioned and unchallenged in the US. That's changing, fortunately. Fuck yes Bernie.

Bernie and Corbyn in the UK might be critical of Israel but that's always been a left wing trope. I doubt that it'll ever catch on among the right wing political camp. I mean ever. The only people who appear to be critical of Israel or fellow travelling in the US are pretty radical anti-semites and white nationalists, which actually works in Israel's favour and corresponds to their own thinking that mono-cultural societies in conflict is all that is or will ever be feasible as realpolitik.

The left wing opposition to zionism is pretty long standing, there's a long left wing jewish tradition which opposed zionism from the days of Herschel (spelling) and right through the holocaust. Like if you've ever read The Ghetto Fights about the Warsaw Uprising against the Nazi's actual murder campaign the Jewish author writes about Zionism collusion with the Nazis and their telling people to get on the trains that they were taking them to Israel. Its pretty full on stuff by the Jewish Labor resistance fighters.

There was some excellent stuff about all this on Wikipedia for a while, the Bund I think it was called, but it got really badly vandalized by all sorts of dickheads and finally was removed altogether.
 

Burning Paradigm

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The fact the Democrats hold the Senate (albeit barely) and Mitch McConnell still gets all the press and notoriety for what he does as Senate Minority Leader should tell you: 1) McConnell is just that detestable a figure. 2) Democrats are once again incapable of actually using their power. I'm not even talking about internal policy debates and divides, I mean using the rules to their advantage to get their shit through and block the Republicans from causing further harm. I'm not discounting the fact several Democrats are in red states and you don't want to risk losing those seats (I've got my own arguments for why that isn't a sufficient argument to pursue bolder policies, but another day perhaps), but centrist and moderate Dems would be quick to pin the blame on the progressive wing of the party when it's simply an inability or unwillingness from Democratic leadership to actually use their power. Politics is as much about instinct and power plays as it is the fine print of legislation and policy (if not more so).
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I'm not discounting the fact several Democrats are in red states and you don't want to risk losing those seats (I've got my own arguments for why that isn't a sufficient argument to pursue bolder policies, but another day perhaps), but centrist and moderate Dems would be quick to pin the blame on the progressive wing of the party when it's simply an inability or unwillingness from Democratic leadership to actually use their power.

Yup. Funny how the one thing they do have the drive and energy to do is go after progressive Democrats. Truth is it's not a singular figure like Trump (or Dubya before him, back before he was rehabilitated as an emblem of the halcyon days when there was a "bipartisan respect for norms". Although there was never that much push back on his foreign policy or surveillance efforts to begin with in those days from people who were seen as mainstream "pragmatic" Democrats. )that is responsible for the problems America faces. It's not even just the Republicans. Many Democrats also have a lot of responsibility.

Remember how quick they were to throw Black Lives Matter under the bus for not doing better in the House and the Senate back in November? None of the people who lost the races actually talked about defunding the police, and plenty of people who did talk about defunding police got elected. Explain to me how "defunding the police" lost them seats given that?

Like what is Chuck Schumer even doing during any of this?
 

Burning Paradigm

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Yup. Funny how the one thing they do have the drive and energy to do is go after progressive Democrats. Truth is it's not a singular figure like Trump (or Dubya before him, back before rehabilitated as an emblem of the halcyon days when there was a "bipartisan respect for norms". Although there was never that much push back on his foreign policy or surveillance efforts to begin with in those days from people who were seen as mainstream "pragmatic" Democrats. )that is responsible for the problems America faces. It's not even just the Republicans. Many Democrats also have a lot of responsibility.

Remember how quick they were to throw Black Lives Matter under the bus for not doing better in the House and the Senate back in November? Remember how quick they were to throw Black Lives Matter under the bus for not doing better in the House and the Senate back in November? None of the people who lost the races actually talked about defunding the police, and plenty of people who did talk about defunding police got elected. Explain to me how "defunding the police" lost them seats given that?

Like what is Chuck Schumer even doing during any of this?

Don't get me started on the rehabilitation of George W. Bush. Absolute foolishness on part of (some) liberals and Democrats. Yes, Trump's demeanor and open nastiness were unbecoming of someone whose job was to be a leader, but that was not the core problem. He embodied the Republican Party inching downward into a decrepit entity, something ignited since the Reagan era and ushered on by Bush's conservatives, an entity that created a horrid consensus on economics and social issues (particularly race) that even many Democrats tacitly accepted and consequently, watered down their policies. No amount of Bush's folksiness and "outward decency" can change that.

EDIT: Sorry, I inadvertently cropped some of the original quote, but the same goes for Medicare for All. They swear *that's* the doom of the Democratic party, yet many candidates won in swing districts (at worst, in spite of, and at best, in large part because of) campaigning on and supporting it.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Don't get me started on the rehabilitation of George W. Bush. Absolute foolishness on part of (some) liberals and Democrats. Yes, Trump's demeanor and open nastiness were unbecoming of someone whose job was to be a leader, but that was not the core problem. He embodied the Republican Party inching downward into a decrepit entity, something ignited since the Reagan era and ushered on by Bush's conservatives, an entity that created a horrid consensus on economics and social issues (particularly race) that even many Democrats tacitly accepted and consequently, watered down their policies. No amount of Bush's folksiness and "outward decency" can change that.

EDIT: Sorry, I inadvertently cropped some of the original quote, but the same goes for Medicare for All. They swear *that's* the doom of the Democratic party, yet many candidates won in swing districts (at worst, in spite of, and at best, in large part because of) campaigning on and supporting it.

The problem is that lots of center-left types during Republican administrations, are apparently incapable of developing any understanding of the current situation beyond an obsession with the current President. No need for any context or greater understanding systems, it's just that this one bad guy got in there that's ruining everything. Convenient how that works to the advantage of shitty centrist Democrats when the only problem is the one bad person and all you have to do to fix things is get the bad man out.
 

Burning Paradigm

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The problem is that lots of center-left types are during Republican administrations, apparently incapable of developing any understanding of the current situation beyond an obsession with the current President. No need for any context or greater understanding systems, it's just that this one bad guy got in there that's ruining everything. Convenient how that works to the advantage of shitty centrist Democrats when the only problem is the one bad person and all you have to do to fix things is get the bad man out.

I think that's a good summary of it. I'm one of those people who voted for Bernie in the primary and still voted Biden to get Trump out, but at no point did I believe that was sufficient (esp. not give Biden's track record). He's made *some* minimal strides but capitulated or not pushed as hard on many other things. Yet, you bring this up to some people and they'll act like you should've just voted for Trump then if you're going to criticize Biden.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I think that's a good summary of it. I'm one of those people who voted for Bernie in the primary and still voted Biden to get Trump out, but at no point did I believe that was sufficient (esp. not give Biden's track record). He's made *some* minimal strides but capitulated or not pushed as hard on many other things. Yet, you bring this up to some people and they'll act like you should've just voted for Trump then if you're going to criticize Biden.

Yeah... I did the same (I voted for Hillary too, and I will read anyone who blames "Bernie supporters" for Hillary losing the riot act). I sensed that vibe here for a while but after today I sensed an opportunity to put an obnoxious "I told you so" in here, so I had to do it. I get that it's annoying to do that, but it's my consolation prize for enduring years of people calling me deluded, naive, idealistic, psychotic, etc, etc for occasionally voicing my actual opinion on these matters.

I get that it's irritating and smug, but I take joy in life where I can find it.
 

Burning Paradigm

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Yeah... I did the same (I voted for Hillary too, and I will read anyone who blames "Bernie supporters" for Hillary losing the riot act). I sensed that vibe here for a while but after today I sensed an opportunity to put an obnoxious "I told you so" in here, so I had to do it. I get that it's annoying to do that, but it's my consolation prize for enduring years of people calling me deluded, naive, idealistic, psychotic, etc, etc for occasionally voicing my actual opinion on these matters.

I get that it's irritating and smug, but I take joy in life where I can find it.

Nah, talk your shit, my man. The delusion is thinking what needs to be fixed is minimal and people of a more progressive persuasion are just sowing needless discord. The discord is there regardless of what these people perceive, and will only grow the more they choose to ignore the problem. I'm optimistic that people can get on board with what a progressive vision has to offer (or certain elements. of it), though it takes time, but you're not delusional. Like I said, talk your shit.
 

Lark

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Nah, talk your shit, my man. The delusion is thinking what needs to be fixed is minimal and people of a more progressive persuasion are just sowing needless discord. The discord is there regardless of what these people perceive, and will only grow the more they choose to ignore the problem. I'm optimistic that people can get on board with what a progressive vision has to offer (or certain elements. of it), though it takes time, but you're not delusional. Like I said, talk your shit.

Essentially I agree with you, although about social problems or social changes, particularly of the normative rather than distributive justice types, a reflective (no reflexive) conservatism IS warranted. Do it right, so it lasts and is not easily reversed, say in a single generation.

Also accept, when it proves to be the case, that intent/motives can/could be flawless but execution/application proves impossible for different reasons, sometimes you have to undo mistaken change effected with the best motives (by either conservative or progressive politicians or policies). I think a lot of peoples hopes and expectations are weird, its like states, laws, to a certain extent soft compulsion/coercion have been deified. Ultimately, I think there will be the same disatisfaction with this, whether there are the appearances of "successes" or not.

In part its got to do with the amount of distance that's grown up between essence and existence when it comes to human life but that's been going on for a long, long time. The fads, fashions, vogues of the moment dont really show up in terms of historical time but its a thing, none the less. All political, religious, normative trends seem to drive this, left, right or centre. I think at best some of the theorists who've really been aware of this have had to offer is a boundaried life, public and private are separate, work on yourself, put your own house in order, if you're lucky you may benefit from the best in social trends and achieve some sort of independence from the less well thought out.

All of which is to say that I'm less convince progress is always assured. Definitely not in an age of populism.
 

Stigmata

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Yeah... I did the same (I voted for Hillary too, and I will read anyone who blames "Bernie supporters" for Hillary losing the riot act). I sensed that vibe here for a while but after today I sensed an opportunity to put an obnoxious "I told you so" in here, so I had to do it. I get that it's annoying to do that, but it's my consolation prize for enduring years of people calling me deluded, naive, idealistic, psychotic, etc, etc for occasionally voicing my actual opinion on these matters.

I get that it's irritating and smug, but I take joy in life where I can find it.

I guess being on the right side of an "I told you so" really is that gratifying, even if everything is burning down around you. At this point out who's to blame really is irrelevant when the wheels are already in motion -- The guilty parties know who they are and don't really care if the court of public opinion wags their finger at them while shaming them.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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In addition to deluded and psychotic, I've gotten "cynical" a lot, and also been told I "need to believe" quite often, frequently from people who make a big thing out of how they're against religion.

Also I'm not just gloating but volunteering my time more and more towards making a better alternative more likely. It's not as though I'm sitting on my ass all the time preening because I was proven right.

I guess being on the right side of an "I told you so" really is that gratifying, even if everything is burning down around you. At this point out who's to blame really is irrelevant when the wheels are already in motion -- The guilty parties know who they are and don't really care if the court of public opinion wags their finger at them while shaming them.

One more thing Murray, when I come out, can you introduce me as Joker?

I do see humor in the fact that our society is falling apart because our vaunted elites of sound wisdom and judgement, in our system designed to protect us from the horrors of "mob rule" (really, read the Federalist Papers), are actually a bunch of self-centered ossified morons. I've had the suspicion for a long time now that there was no one actually at the wheel. Yes, I get how that can be upsetting to discover; it certainly upset me when I started to feel that way. I felt betrayed by everyone older than me who had told me all these things about the way the world worked that weren't actually true. It pissed me off for a long time. I'm mostly (but not entirely) past that by now.

My advice to you is to assume the worst and you can be pleasantly surprised when it doesn't happen. I anticipate the worst so I can be overjoyed when I'm found to be incorrect.

Also let's remember, folks, that a Republican president has actually only won a majority of the votes once since 1992. Maybe "mob rule" wasn't the greatest threat we could ever face? In any country that was actually democratic, Trump wouldn't have actually won.
 

Lark

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I am fucking raging, they introduced parking charges on a car park that was free for years and I never knew about this, had to pay an exorbitant fine today. I can afford it, I guess but that fine would have fucked over some poorer members of the community and I'm sure it has. My council area is a total and utter den of fucking thieves.

I'm going to definitely see if there's any libertarian anti-tax, anti-charge anarchist protest groups locally and if there are not any then I'm definitely creating one. Bastards. They will rue the day.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I am fucking raging, they introduced parking charges on a car park that was free for years and I never knew about this, had to pay an exorbitant fine today. I can afford it, I guess but that fine would have fucked over some poorer members of the community and I'm sure it has. My council area is a total and utter den of fucking thieves.

I'm going to definitely see if there's any libertarian anti-tax, anti-charge anarchist protest groups locally and if there are not any then I'm definitely creating one. Bastards. They will rue the day.

You do you. I signed up to do mutual aid today.
 
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